Ford Wants NFL Team For Toronto

[TOareaFan]

It does indeed ...

I think it means a North American city that's better than LA, New York City, Mexico City, or Montreal.

Funny that very few of the biggest cities in the continent have NFL teams ...

Just wondering.....if Toronto got a team but the decided location of the stadium was just west of the 427 in Mississauga or, say, by the Vaughan Corporate Centre......but the team was called, say, Toronto Tarantulas.....would you say that Toronto did not have a team? 'Cause, you know, there are two teams about that far from Manhattan that call themselves New York but just happen to not play within the municipal boundries of New York.

If, to be considered "having" an NFL team the stadium has to be within the municipal boundries......add Washington, Boston, Phoenix and Dallas to your list of cities that do not have NFL teams.

 

[TOareaFan]

Bottom Line is we will NOT get a team until we have a stadium. Which makes this debate pointless. The reality Rogers Center is garbage and and a sorry excuse for anything. We need a stadium or plans for one before this goes through any further.

I am not even sure this is true. The reason that the NFL has a minimum stadium size (which I think is 60k) is not because they have some fetish for huge crowds (although I think Jerry Jones does) it is because they have that revenue sharing formula. So, as an example, they don't want team A sharing 50/50 the gate in an 80,000 seat stadium with team B who can only reciprocate with a 40,000 seat stadium. Assuming the same average ticket prices, team B would be "ripping off" team A.

If, you could show (and I suspect you could) that Rogers Centre has the ability to generate the same sized gate receipts as a typical 60 - 70k stadium currently in the league then I bet you could get some exception that would allow Rogers Centre to be used with just some minor modifications. So if you could add some seats in places there are none now (take advantage of the smaller field that the NFL uses compared to the CFL to squeeze some in) and get the thing closer to the 60k number).

What we know from the Bills in Toronto series is that they thought they could generate the revenue of 2 - 3 games in Buffalo. This has proven to be incorrect but if the number is closer to 2 times (or even 1.5 times) why would the NFL prefer to have games in stadiums like the one in Orchard Park that generate "X" per game than Rogers Centre which could generate "1.5X" (or more) per game.

In the end it is about revenue not head count (besides, lower stadium capacity leads to more sellouts, leading to less local blackouts, leading to higher value of TV package leading to more league revenue).

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I am not even sure this is true. The reason that the NFL has a minimum stadium size (which I think is 60k) is not because they have some fetish for huge crowds (although I think Jerry Jones does) it is because they have that revenue sharing formula. So, as an example, they don't want team A sharing 50/50 the gate in an 80,000 seat stadium with team B who can only reciprocate with a 40,000 seat stadium. Assuming the same average ticket prices, team B would be "ripping off" team A.

If, you could show (and I suspect you could) that Rogers Centre has the ability to generate the same sized gate receipts as a typical 60 - 70k stadium currently in the league then I bet you could get some exception that would allow Rogers Centre to be used with just some minor modifications. So if you could add some seats in places there are none now (take advantage of the smaller field that the NFL uses compared to the CFL to squeeze some in) and get the thing closer to the 60k number).

What we know from the Bills in Toronto series is that they thought they could generate the revenue of 2 - 3 games in Buffalo. This has proven to be incorrect but if the number is closer to 2 times (or even 1.5 times) why would the NFL prefer to have games in stadiums like the one in Orchard Park that generate "X" per game than Rogers Centre which could generate "1.5X" (or more) per game.

In the end it is about revenue not head count (besides, lower stadium capacity leads to more sellouts, leading to less local blackouts, leading to higher value of TV package leading to more league revenue).

IMO you are correct, but the reality it is about the event and expericence. I hate to admit it but GenW is right on the part. That isn't to say we won't support the NFL(we would) just that a stadium like you mention in a open air area with tailgating would be much better suited than rogers center. For the record they have gotten almost 10 million per game, rogers cannot own a team. Which is fine.

Regardless of whether the Rogers Center is half empty and Rogers is losing money hand over fist, the Bills are still getting paid the same. It's a fixed price per game agreement.

Don't forget that the Bills are getting an estimated $9.75 Million per game, INCLUDING pre-season games. A REGULAR season game at the Ralph nets the Bills just under 5 million dollars, likely much less during the pre-season.

"The $9.75 million figure for the average Bills game in Toronto represents a windfall profit for the team, or roughly twice what the Bills can gross even from a sold-out game.

The team can realize about $3.8 million in gross ticket sales for an average home sellout in Orchard Park; additional game-day revenue increases that to about $5 million."

(source: Rogers Center)

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

BTW Toronto Tarantulas? Sick name!

 

[TOareaFan]

IMO you are correct, but the reality it is about the event and expericence. I hate to admit it but GenW is right on the part. That isn't to say we won't support the NFL(we would) just that a stadium like you mention in a open air area with tailgating would be much better suited than rogers center. For the record they have gotten almost 10 million per game, rogers cannot own a team. Which is fine.

Well, I am one of the "anti-tailgating" people. Recent studies showing the level of impairment at NFL stadiums tells me that we are absolutely right in banning the concept of people driving their cars to an open area specifically for the purpose of drinking! I could see myself supporting limited tailgating if it were in a very controlled fashion (ie. designated lots where every driver leaving the tailgating lots was subjected to a RIDE inspection/breathe test...with the team footing the bill for that additional policing cost).

As for the Bill's revenue....if $5mill is what they generate for sold out games in Orchard Park....the fact that their 7 games there this year were played to an average of 86% capacity.....they are closer to 4.3 mill so they got more than twice the revenue from the games at Rogers than they would otherwise.

 

[TOareaFan]

BTW Toronto Tarantulas? Sick name!

Really, I meant it as a "way out there" kinda joke so that the thread did not get sidetracked on a name debate!

 

[marcus_a_j]

What's a north american world class city... what does that even mean?

Egg Management Fee.

 

[nfitz]

Just wondering.....if Toronto got a team but the decided location of the stadium was just west of the 427 in Mississauga or, say, by the Vaughan Corporate Centre......but the team was called, say, Toronto Tarantulas.....would you say that Toronto did not have a team? 'Cause, you know, there are two teams about that far from Manhattan that call themselves New York but just happen to not play within the municipal boundries of New York.

If, to be considered "having" an NFL team the stadium has to be within the municipal boundries......add Washington, Boston, Phoenix and Dallas to your list of cities that do not have NFL teams.

Are you suggesting that Rob Ford is pushing to have Toronto not get an NFL team, but put it in another city? He's the mayor of Toronto isn't he?

As for New York City - the stadium isn't even in the same state! Yes, it's not far from Manhattan, but there's a river in the way, and no public transit, other than a shuttle bus through the Lincoln tunnel ... which spends much of it's time stuck in traffic. Given the usual state of the Lincoln tunnel, it could just as easily be in Poughkeepsie as far as anyone living in Manhattan is concerned.

I must confess though, I don't comprehend the US habit of putting sports stadiums in vehcile-only accessible locations. Given that alcohol consumption is very much related to football, it would seem to me that you'd want some serious transit that is lacking for many US stadiums. Perhaps that's why it takes 4-hours to play a 1-hour game ... you have to make sure there's enough time for everyone to sober up from the pre-game festivities before they drive home ...

 

[TOareaFan]

Are you suggesting that Rob Ford is pushing to have Toronto not get an NFL team, but put it in another city? He's the mayor of Toronto isn't he?

I think he is pushing for "Toronto" to get a team and to have that team not consume public funds. If it it ends up playing just outside the municipal borders I am not sure he has any control over that. That, aside, your comment that I responded to seemed to be mocking the concept that to be a major North American City you need to have an NFL team and included New York with 3 other cities that do not have teams....I think New York has a team just as much as Dallas and Washington have teams (the latter of which also plays across a river in the State of Maryland as opposed to within the District of Columbia )

I must confess though, I don't comprehend the US habit of putting sports stadiums in vehcile-only accessible locations. Given that alcohol consumption is very much related to football, it would seem to me that you'd want some serious transit that is lacking for many US stadiums. Perhaps that's why it takes 4-hours to play a 1-hour game ... you have to make sure there's enough time for everyone to sober up from the pre-game festivities before they drive home ...

I agree on stadium location....but people keep telling us that tailgating (and its resultant behavior of drinking and driving) are part of the NFL experience....so perhaps they have to have stadiums far away with lots of parking and in less populated areas so that the damage the drunk drivers do is less?

 

[nfitz]

That, aside, your comment that I responded to seemed to be mocking the concept that to be a major North American City you need to have an NFL team

It was. Mexico City doesn't have one. Los Angeles doesn't have one (well it does, but it's a long drive to Missouri). New York's is in another state and amost inaccessible from the city itself. As you've pointed out Washington barely has one these days (though there has been talk of moving them back to D.C.), Montreal doesn't have one ... which really only leaves Chicago as a world-class city that has an NFL team. NFL teams seem to be more the things of second and third-rate cities ... and I don't see why we would want that in Toronto.

...so perhaps they have to have stadiums far away with lots of parking and in less populated areas so that the damage the drunk drivers do is less?

Seems a rather 1970s way of doing things ... surely if this is what the league is built on, there may be a long-term instability in the league ... kind of like the CFL where you can now say that the reason that they call it the Grey Cup is that's because of the hair colour of the crowd.

 

[TOareaFan]

I think if you asked New Yorkers or Washingtonians if they had an NFL team the answer would be yes........when any of those 3 teams play they are called NY/Washington and that is the profile of the teams........Los Angeles will have a team very soon (watch San Diego slide to LA)....which just leaves (by your measure) Mexico, Toronto and Montreal without one.....I would think we will be first on that list to get one....but the stadium might be, goodness gracious, another municipality so we may have to call it the Ontario Orangutans!


as an aside, wouldn't the city of Landover have a problem with the 'skins moving back to DC? Did they build that stadium without a long term lease? What is it, 10 years old?

EDIT: I should, at this point, note that even though I consider myself a sports nut, I don't actually agree with the principal that you judge your city's status/worth by what leagues/teams happen to play in your town. I just took exception to you noting that New York does not have an NFL team when, to most people, they have two. Probably enough said on the point.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Are you suggesting that Rob Ford is pushing to have Toronto not get an NFL team, but put it in another city? He's the mayor of Toronto isn't he?

As for New York City - the stadium isn't even in the same state! Yes, it's not far from Manhattan, but there's a river in the way, and no public transit, other than a shuttle bus through the Lincoln tunnel ... which spends much of it's time stuck in traffic. Given the usual state of the Lincoln tunnel, it could just as easily be in Poughkeepsie as far as anyone living in Manhattan is concerned.

I must confess though, I don't comprehend the US habit of putting sports stadiums in vehcile-only accessible locations. Given that alcohol consumption is very much related to football, it would seem to me that you'd want some serious transit that is lacking for many US stadiums. Perhaps that's why it takes 4-hours to play a 1-hour game ... you have to make sure there's enough time for everyone to sober up from the pre-game festivities before they drive home ...

Nfitz, the stadium is connected by NJ transit trains with at least three stations close by. The point of vehicle locations is that to make money.

 

[nfitz]

I think if you asked New Yorkers or Washingtonians if they had an NFL team the answer would be yes...

Washingtonians perhaps ... but the New Yorker's I know in Manhattan? Probably not ... they seem to think the Hudson River is some kind of international border ... judging by the reactions I've got from suggesting taking the PATH to Harrison to see the Red Bulls (which might be more of a function of the folks I know) ... which is a heck of a lot easier than getting through the Lincoln Tunnel to Giants Stadium. I'm not an NFL fan though ... what are the demographics of the New York team fan support? Where do people live who attend the games?

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

It was. Mexico City doesn't have one. Los Angeles doesn't have one (well it does, but it's a long drive to Missouri). New York's is in another state and amost inaccessible from the city itself. As you've pointed out Washington barely has one these days (though there has been talk of moving them back to D.C.), Montreal doesn't have one ... which really only leaves Chicago as a world-class city that has an NFL team. NFL teams seem to be more the things of second and third-rate cities ... and I don't see why we would want that in Toronto.

Seems a rather 1970s way of doing things ... surely if this is what the league is built on, there may be a long-term instability in the league ... kind of like the CFL where you can now say that the reason that they call it the Grey Cup is that's because of the hair colour of the crowd.

Again its a metaphor. Los Angeles is in the process of getting one back. Giants used to play at Yankees stadium. Mexico has shown interest as well. The "another state" thing is BS, as New York Newark is one continuous area. The Cowboys don't play in Dallas, does that make them less the Cowboys? No!

Seems you only oppose this because Ford said it.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

Washingtonians perhaps ... but the New Yorker's I know in Manhattan? Probably not ... they seem to think the Hudson River is some kind of international border ... judging by the reactions I've got from suggesting taking the PATH to Harrison to see the Red Bulls (which might be more of a function of the folks I know) ... which is a heck of a lot easier than getting through the Lincoln Tunnel to Giants Stadium. I'm not an NFL fan though ... what are the demographics of the New York team fan support? Where do people live who attend the games?

They complain because its in NJ but they all go on sunday.