FIXING Transit City

[kd86]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmm lets see.

Lest destroy a perfectly good infrastructure (ie SRT transit corridors.) and replace it with a ONE STATION subway line into scaborugh all for sake of geting rid of a transferre.

YEP thats GOOD planning kEiThZ

Your really looking out for the best interest of Scarborough residents.

B-D extension should be a LOW priority given the funding crunch we have

BY the way kEiThZ ur B-D extension does nothing with respect to expanding rapid transit to Scarborough if anything it shrinks it.........AND all for the sake of eliminating a Transfer.

By the way if you asked the average Scarborough resident( including me a former resident) Would you rather see transit expanded to north east Scarborough or eliminate the transfere ant Kennedy with a ONE station subway extension. What do u think the average rider would say kEiThZ

B-D extension is example of poor transit planning "LETs get rid of 7 exsiting and future SRT stations and replace it with 1 subway station " Yah that really good planning kEiThZ

 

[gweed123]

hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmm lets see.

Lest destroy a perfectly good infrastructure (ie SRT transit corridors.) and replace it with a ONE STATION subway line into scaborugh all for sake of geting rid of a transferre.

Ignoring the pile of spelling mistakes, you honestly believe that the SRT corridor is "perfectly good infrastructure"? Really? Is that why it's falling apart and needs to be replaced by 2015? I bet you would also qualify the Gardiner as "perfectly good infrastructure". "Oh, never mind the falling chunks of concrete, it's still good!"

 

[CapitalSeven]

At least let's get the issues straight. The SRT per se isn't falling apart; the vehicles will be 30 years old and worn out soon, and there haven't been enough of them for several years.

On the one hand, throwing away a re-usable corridor and reducing the number of service points makes a subway extension seem wasteful. On the other, replacing a less than optimal corridor with another to avoid a service disruption of 2-3 years seems logical. Neither solution is ideal or obviously better. Each is a compromise. Detabe that.

 

[gweed123]

At least let's get the issues straight. The SRT per se isn't falling apart; the vehicles will be 30 years old and worn out soon, and there haven't been enough of them for several years.

On the one hand, throwing away a re-usable corridor and reducing the number of service points makes a subway extension seem wasteful. On the other, replacing a less than optimal corridor with another to avoid a service disruption of 2-3 years seems logical. Neither solution is ideal or obviously better. Each is a compromise. Detabe that.

I agree that neither is optimal, but let's face it, the routing the SRT uses between Kennedy and STC is a path of least resistance. It doesn't have any reflection on where the people along the route actually are. Conversely, a B-D extension running along a Danforth-McCowan alignment would actually hit some pretty decent pockets of density (especially if an extra station were added at Eglinton and Danforth, which BTW I think should be, the distance between there and Kennedy is more than long enough).

This would allow for uninterrupted service during construction, and a seamless switchover (much the way the Yonge streetcar stopped operating the minute the Yonge subway opened). After that, the corridor can be used to double or even triple track the Stouffville GO line, opening the possibility for all-day GO service, a possibility that could not exist if the SRLT were built.

It could be argued that a subway extension to STC and/or Sheppard (if you wanted to extend it one stop further), coupled with an improved bus system that uses queue jump lanes, and possibly curbside bus lanes in strategic locations, would provide not only a better, but a wider-reaching service than 1 LRT line. Funnel all the bus routes in the northern half of Scarborough into STC, and then use the subway to ship people out from there. This is not really a foreign concept to Toronto, Finch Station already operates a lot like this, with routes all over the northern part of Toronto, and parts of York Region all funnelling into 1 location.

 

[kd86]

Ignoring the pile of spelling mistakes, you honestly believe that the SRT corridor is "perfectly good infrastructure"? Really? Is that why it's falling apart and needs to be replaced by 2015? I bet you would also qualify the Gardiner as "perfectly good infrastructure". "Oh, never mind the falling chunks of concrete, it's still good!"

Sorry Andrew I didn’t get the memo that this was an English forum.........I'll make sure my English is up to par your Majesti opps I spelled that wrong Majesty.

Anyways that being said its the vehicles that is worn out not the infrastructure the fact that you compare the Gardiner expressway to the RT right-of-way, just goes to shows you how good you know the area. When have you heard of chunks of concrete falling from the SRT right of way. Please get your facts str8 (......opps another correction I meant straight .) before you make comments like that. I guess Vancouver also has chunks of concrete falling from there guideways........maybe we should replace them with underground subways.

YES the ridership between Kennedy and STC can supports a subway but come on!!!!!! you sound worse then ROB FORD who propose putting the subway on the existing SRT right of way.

If your going extend the B-D line to STC at least make the alignment more user friendly (ie running along eglinton with stops at Midland and McCwan/Danforth, and then a stop at Lawrence via McCowan ) but of course that will never happen all wishful thinking

Tell me Andrew how will a subway service all the potential development available near Brimley road at STC. Did you know the SRT project was proposing a Station there to address future development? I guess you forgot that because you’re to fixated on this B-D extension

As for the Scarborough councillors that supported the B-D extension back in 2005. That’s all talk. One minute their handing out flyers at Kennedy station to support the subway extension, the next minute there Millers puppets and is supporting LRT corridors.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

One option is optimal. Yes, extending the Danforth line to STC is Scarborough's number one priority. It's pretty much common knowledge to everyone other than a few transit geeks on the internet. Combining Eglinton and the SRT into one line helps hardly anyone and doesn't make any sense, unless you're someone who thinks Eglinton needs more grade separation and wants to try to force some by running the RT on it, and has no firsthand knowledge of Scarborough but thinks "well, it's right there so let's just connect those two lines because it makes the transit map look sooo cool." Actually, that describes a scarily large amount of forumers. The main outcome from combining Eglinton and the SRT would be to further overwhelm the Yonge line north of Bloor, though that's only if people don't just keep going down the Danforth line at Kennedy.

Half the Transit City lines have been shelved and the grossly expanding pricetag may yet kill a bit more. We don't even need Bob Barker to request that we have our Transit City spayed and neutered...it's fixing itself just fine on its own.

Finch, Eglinton, and the Western Waterfront were the salvagable lines, in some form, anyway. Maybe even a segment of the Morningside line if Eglinton had gone east of Kennedy as it should have (bus routes could have branched out from Markington and/or the nearby Lakeshore GO station). People will continue to argue about Eglinton until after it opens. Sheppard should be a subway + buses, Don Mills should be the DRL, Jane should be just some improved express/Rocket service (east/west lines and the Spadina extension will grind Jane's peak ridership crowds into a tiny pulp). Morningside never made the slightest bit of sense...everyone knows that UTSC should be served via Ellesmere from STC. The SRT needs to be a subway extension.

*****

Your spelling isn't the problem, kd86...it's your hysterics.

The Brimley RT station would be a barely 300m walk from STC station...well, 200m if they simply built a western exit at STC, otherwise you'd have to go around the condos or through the mall. Adding Brimley would be an extreme waste of time and money when the Brimley & Progress area is only two blocks from an existing station. It'd slow the whole line down to save a tiny number of people a ~200m walk.

If the subway extension ran up Midland or McCowan, various station locations would be viable, but the city has never bothered to study different alignments because they do not want the subway extended. We don't know where the station entrances would be at STC. The only conceptual alignment they've looked at is via Brimley & Lawrence, and they've only looked at this alignment during the impossible task of trying to justify anything other than a subway extension.

Running up Midland could mean stations at Midland and Lawrence, Midland and Ellesmere, and STC. Ellesmere's ridership is virtually nothing but park/kiss'n'riders, and they would all benefit from having the station moved and a proper connection to the 95 added. Lawrence East would only be moved over 400m, which is actually closer to the large cluster of apartments and means a shorter bus ride for the 54. Midland, again, would benefit from being moved 250m south, though the Midland bus is so fast that even losing the station completely would not be a bother. McCowan could easily be replaced by the STC station being shifted slightly east - and the platform would be longer, anyway.

Running up McCowan would mean different benefits, but still an improvement over the existing RT stations.

Of course, it's a lot easier to know nothing about these stations and just worry about people having to drive a minute or two in a different direction to get to them.

 

[Electrify]

Electrify: What you propose is interesting, and thank you for sharing. However, I think a Finch LRV should exist at least from Yonge to Humber, preferably extended to Wild Water Kingdom's area in the future if not at first. I also find it a shame that you omitted any transit solution for downtown, and more importantly any relief line(s) running north-south to relive congestion of the B-D & Y-U-S lines.

---

I just wish the purposed Sheppard, Eglinton, and Queen (with updates) subway lines were completed.

As I said, the focus of this is on phase 1 plans, things which the funding is set and are ready to go, so that we don't lose this opportunity like we have so many others... Finch is in phase 2, which is why it is not included here. The Downtown Relief Line is currently in phase 3 of Metrolinx's plans, though it is possible it will be upgraded to phase 2.

 

[gweed123]

Sorry Andrew I didn’t get the memo that this was an English forum.........I'll make sure my English is up to par your Majesti opps I spelled that wrong Majesty.

Anyways that being said its the vehicles that is worn out not the infrastructure the fact that you compare the Gardiner expressway to the RT right-of-way, just goes to shows you how good you know the area. When have you heard of chunks of concrete falling from the SRT right of way. Please get your facts str8 (......opps another correction I meant straight .) before you make comments like that. I guess Vancouver also has chunks of concrete falling from there guideways........maybe we should replace them with underground subways.

YES the ridership between Kennedy and STC can supports a subway but come on!!!!!! you sound worse then ROB FORD who propose putting the subway on the existing SRT right of way.

If your going extend the B-D line to STC at least make the alignment more user friendly (ie running along eglinton with stops at Midland and McCwan/Danforth, and then a stop at Lawrence via McCowan ) but of course that will never happen all wishful thinking

Tell me Andrew how will a subway service all the potential development available near Brimley road at STC. Did you know the SRT project was proposing a Station there to address future development? I guess you forgot that because you’re to fixated on this B-D extension

As for the Scarborough councillors that supported the B-D extension back in 2005. That’s all talk. One minute their handing out flyers at Kennedy station to support the subway extension, the next minute there Millers puppets and is supporting LRT corridors.

Scarberian perfectly explained what I was going to say, so thank you Scarberian.

And ps: the more "user friendly" alignment that you described is exactly what I described earlier...

 

[Dan416]

I've always felt Scarberian was pretty knowledgeable about Scarborough (or maybe I'm just influenced by his username).

If I were to trust two people to come up with a new subway alignment from Kennedy to STC, I'd trust scarberiankhatru and keithz.

 

[Amy Rose]

Jane should be just some improved express/Rocket service (east/west lines and the Spadina extension will grind Jane's peak ridership crowds into a tiny pulp).

Jane will still be largely overcrowded since it still services 4 malls and traffic going to these malls and high rises and community housing areas. What's this theory that other higher priority transit routes takes off 90% of the original route's load. Also, the areas Jane serves yields LRT and rocket service is going to either be a joke or too far spaced that only a couple could benefit from direct service.

 

[lafard]

The Spadina extension will no more funnel off Jane's loads than the sheppard subway did on Finch. Even when they tried to force it by diverting Finch buses to Don Mills stn it still failed miserably to do so.

 

[gweed123]

The Spadina extension will no more funnel off Jane's loads than the sheppard subway did on Finch. Even when they tried to force it by diverting Finch buses to Don Mills stn it still failed miserably to do so.

I'm not too sure about that. The reason Sheppard failed at diverting passengers away from Finch is that it's too damn short. Why would people transfer from a Finch bus onto the Sheppard line, just to transfer again at Sheppard-Yonge, a mere two stations down from where they would have gotten onto the Yonge line had they just stayed on the bus. There was no significant time savings incentive in order to get people to switch.

But I do agree that the Jane bus will not see a significant reduction in traffic, but not because of commuters. As Amy Rose mentioned (welcome to UT btw), there are a lot of intermediate trip generators on Jane. It would be interesting to see how many people from above Eglinton actually ride the Jane bus all the way down to Jane Stn. If the Spadina extension were to benefit anyone, it would be those people.

 

[Electrify]

Seeing as using Eglinton as a replacement to the SRT is not picking up too much enthusiasm, why not turning it into a busway? You could have various bus routes funnel on to it to increase capacity and to remove a transfer at the end of the line.

The reason I'm hesitant on simply extending the subway is because as is, the trains would not be able to handle the tight turns. So either you would need a full extension of the line up McCowan (which would probably be completed several decades after a Downtown Relief Line is constructed), or a complete rebuild of Kennedy station and surrounding track.

 

[gweed123]

Seeing as using Eglinton as a replacement to the SRT is not picking up too much enthusiasm, why not turning it into a busway? You could have various bus routes funnel on to it to increase capacity and to remove a transfer at the end of the line.

The reason I'm hesitant on simply extending the subway is because as is, the trains would not be able to handle the tight turns. So either you would need a full extension of the line up McCowan (which would probably be completed several decades after a Downtown Relief Line is constructed), or a complete rebuild of Kennedy station and surrounding track.

1) The SLRT isn't going to be operational until 2020 anyway (or at least that was the latest estimate IIRC). So that's plenty of time to study, design, and build a subway extension. If you can't build a minor subway extension in under 10 years, there's something wrong with the process.

2) The SRT will require a complete rebuild of Kennedy anyway. If anything, extending the subway using the current alignment will negate this costly and disruptive rebuild.

And the busway is an interesting idea. It would certainly change the travel patterns for all of Scarborough. However, I think it would still serve more utility to use that land as part of a widening of the Stouffville GO line.

 

[smarches]

I was playing around with possible plans that could be done with the money for transit and came up with this map. I would like input and/or corrections to it just for something I can compile. Where possible I have posted links for my cost figures. Depending on costs the Sherway Gardens extension and the western half of the DRL could be held off saving roughly $2.4- 2.9 billion. I left room for the extension of the Eglinton Crosstown and Yonge Expansion. My total cost varies between large numbers that are impossible and lows that are probably impractical.

1. Turn all of Sheppard into a LRT and have it go to the Agincourt GO to allow commuters to flow onto the line, and make use of the grade separation that is being built. This would eliminate the transfer at Don Mills and could be done for between $550 million to $1 billion assuming savings from total line could cover conversion costs. It is a large cost, but one I feel is better then extending the subway line to STC.

“March 21, 2007: Toronto Transit Commission approves Transit City strategy, without identified funding sources. Estimated cost of Eglinton Crosstown LRT (from Kennedy to Lester B. Pearson): $2.2-billion; Finch West, $835-million; Sheppard East, $555-million.â€
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...tes-in-favour-of-lrt-strategy/article1830896/

“…with Ontario contributing two-thirds of the nearly $1-billion price tag and Ottawa picking up the rest.â€
http://westkelowna.com/forums/topic...ndbreaking-14-km-line-to-cost-1b-open-by-2014

2. Build the DRL. We all know it is needed and the latest figures on the cost I found were putting it at $3 billion.

“First studied in 1985, the route would cost more than $3-billion today.â€
http://network.nationalpost.com/np/...sider-relief-line-by-2018-giambrone-says.aspx


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...tes-in-favour-of-lrt-strategy/article1830896/

3. The RT has to go no matter what, and I believe a subway replacement would be more beneficial. With the two tentative stops being at Lawrence East and STC. I found the cost for that varying between $1-3.1 billion.

“It states a different alignment for the subway extension is needed, and estimates it could be extended to STC from Kennedy with one new station at Lawrence Avenue for $3.1 billion, including vehicles and a new maintenance facility.â€
http://www.insidetoronto.com/news/c...finch-lines-threatened-by-scarborough-subways

“…plus another $1-billion to draw out the Bloor-Danforth line on what is now the Scarborough RT.â€
http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/toronto/story.html?id=d962effb-23b4-4792-b851-e5ac94167b47

4. With the Eglinton Crosstown, run it through the underground portion to Weston and connect with the GO at Weston for Commuters once again. In the future it could be extended to Kennedy in the east and Pearson in the west, but that is pretty far away. With the underground LRT it is 11km or roughly 8 miles. At a cost of approx. $250 million a mile that comes out to $2 billion.

“A more likely comparison is the Pittsburgh North Shore extension, a portion of which is underground. That project came in at $243.7 million US ($260 Canadian) per mile. “

http://stevelafleur.blogspot.com/2009/12/eglington-lrt-dillema-expropriations-or.html

5. Extend the BD to Sherway Gardens with a stop at West Mall. This is not a priority, but I think it would be a good way to connect more people to the subway and would bookcase the line with two malls. With the rail corridor, I would think this could be done for a bit less and am estimating between $1-1.5 billion. I know people will have something to say about this.