adma
Superstar
And in the case of Glencairn and Yorkdale in particular: bye bye art...
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Fixing the Rundown TTC
- Thread starter junctionist
- Start date
And in the case of Glencairn and Yorkdale in particular: bye bye art...
JasonParis
Moderator
What art was in Glencairn that is now gone?
ShonTron
Moderator
Member Bio
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 12,465
- Reaction score
- 9,264
- Location
- Ward 13 - Toronto Centre
ShonTron
Moderator
Member Bio
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 12,465
- Reaction score
- 9,264
- Location
- Ward 13 - Toronto Centre
Another point, which I noticed after getting back from Montreal, was how bad the bus interiors look there (and even some of the stations) from graffitti and scraffitti. The TTC is spotless in comparison.
doady
Senior Member
I would never use transit if the stations and/or vehicles were covered in graffiti like that.
p5connex
Active Member
^oh well..they aren't and I can't say I would want that either, but could be kind of funky for the first few minutes, at least until the pungent smell of urine overwhelms you and you pass out in it..
p5
p5
TO City of Light
Active Member
I thought we had the answer - cut taxes and privatize.
Is this not working?
a
Is this not working?
a
junctionist
Senior Member
Sick transit: TTC dirty, leaky, decaying
'War zone' stations appall subway users
Mar 08, 2008 04:30 AM
Jack Lakey
Staff Reporter
Dingy, decaying, depressing, and definitely not The Better Way.
That's the verdict of readers about the condition of TTC stations, and the reason we're launching a full week of stories about it.
We recently asked for comments and examples of problems to do with cleanliness, maintenance and overall appearance of TTC stations, which touched a painful nerve with its customers.
About 200 calls and emails – the largest response we've ever had – poured in from riders appalled by grimy, litter-strewn floors, leaky roofs, stalled escalators, abominable washrooms, abandoned repairs and a dispiriting deterioration in the appearance of stations that conveys indifference and neglect.
Of the hundreds of thousands of people who use the system daily, most will end up in one of the 69 stations, often as their point of entry. The importance of a good first impression seems lost on the TTC, based on readers' responses.
Many recall when the stations were spotless and set the standard for North American public transit. People took pride in that reputation. Their memories may have grown rosier over time, but it makes the current state of affairs even harder for them to fathom.
"Go to any station and you will see a thick black coating of grime on the platforms," emailed Leo Gonzalez. "I still remember when those terrazzo floors used to shine, and I'm only in my 30s."
"Shabby is an understatement," wrote Jeff Harvey. "The bus depot (at Eglinton station) is dark, dingy and dirty – a dungeon. Donlands station appears out of a war zone, with a leaky roof and ripped-open ceiling that's been like this for years. It is usually carpeted with litter."
"The roof has leaked for a long time, but (lately) it has been an indoor rainstorm," wrote Sara Lipson of Kipling station. "The problem is so widespread that the temporary fixes do little to stop raindrops from falling on our heads."
"If I was a city health inspector, I would close down the washrooms," wrote Andrew Murphy. "They are absolutely disgusting. At least I can stand up. I wouldn't want to sit on any toilet seat."
One reader complained the inside bus platforms at Kipling are cleaned, "but not the outside ones. Vomit from the weekend is still there Tuesday or Wednesday."
Shawn McCabe, a TTC janitor, called to say "you're taking a shot at us, as usual, and it's a one-sided affair. But the public has to take some responsibility. Sometimes they sit on a bench next to a garbage can and just dump garbage on the floor. The public has to take pride in the stations."
A reader who asked not to be named said he worked as a TTC janitor for two summers, and "there is a culture of apathy and laziness," among cleaning staff.
"Sleeping, playing Frisbee across the tracks, two-hour-long smoke breaks, all of these are not uncommon. Heck, I've seen afternoon shift employees go watch movies at Cineplex in the middle of their shifts."
Comments from readers were so vivid we totalled up some of the descriptions. "Filthy" came up 23 times and "disgusting" 15 times.
Dirt was the most frequently raised problem at 76 times, followed by 47 garbage complaints, 15 of which mentioned the need for more litter receptacles. There were 28 complaints about escalators, elevators and doors, 24 about station repairs, 25 about service and staff, 18 about leaky roofs and water, 14 about snow, 11 about free newspapers, eight about unfinished construction, eight about washrooms and seven about signage.
Councillor Adam Giambrone, who chairs the TTC, says the people who've complained about deteriorating conditions are wrong, and that the stations are cleaner than they were a couple of years ago, according to system audits.
"It takes a while to move people's perceptions," said Giambrone. "You can't reverse the trend overnight. People do see cleaner stations (but) they don't register it.
"People are coming in and saying they do see a difference because there used to be more paper on the tracks. Is it as clean as they'd like? No. But the fact is, things are getting better. It's measurable."
TTC managers are understandably touchy about the criticism.
"Sure, we know the washrooms are bad," says Gary Shortt, the TTC's superintendent of plant maintenance, stressing that a program to replace old plumbing fixtures with automated ones in the system's 10 washrooms is nearing completion. Customer complaints about washrooms have since dropped by 36 per cent, he said.
Janitorial staff is stretched thin, with a total of 248 cleaners to cover the entire system. The total number of dayshift cleaners during the week is just 38. To make matters worse, 2008 TTC budget documents show a daily absentee rate of 12 per cent among cleaners.
There's a lot more to cleaning a subway station than it might seem, said Shortt. For example, the black grime coating so many surfaces is a fine dust created when the brakes on trains are applied as they slow while pulling into stations.
Over time, brake dust builds up on everything and special equipment is needed to remove it in some areas, he said.
"People notice that the tiles on the wall across from the platform are covered with it, but we can't just send a janitor over there," with a brush and a bucket of soapy water said Shortt.
Cleaning staff are not allowed to work at track level due to the electrified third rail in the tracks, which means a flatbed rail car is needed, which can only be used late at night, when the subway has stopped running.
When a flatbed car is available, the cleaning must be done by maintenance workers instead of janitorial staff, which further complicates the job because the first priority for maintenance staff is usually track repairs, which must also be done when the subway isn't running, he said.
Despite the cash squeeze, the TTC has substantial plans for improvements, which will be the subject of a feature article next Saturday.
We're not doing this just to dump on the TTC or proffer outrageous quotes. We're hoping it will compel the TTC and the city councillors who oversee it to take the problem more seriously and move it much higher up on the list of priorities.
And we'll be asking each commissioner what they personally intend to do to fix the problem.
'War zone' stations appall subway users
Mar 08, 2008 04:30 AM
Jack Lakey
Staff Reporter
Dingy, decaying, depressing, and definitely not The Better Way.
That's the verdict of readers about the condition of TTC stations, and the reason we're launching a full week of stories about it.
We recently asked for comments and examples of problems to do with cleanliness, maintenance and overall appearance of TTC stations, which touched a painful nerve with its customers.
About 200 calls and emails – the largest response we've ever had – poured in from riders appalled by grimy, litter-strewn floors, leaky roofs, stalled escalators, abominable washrooms, abandoned repairs and a dispiriting deterioration in the appearance of stations that conveys indifference and neglect.
Of the hundreds of thousands of people who use the system daily, most will end up in one of the 69 stations, often as their point of entry. The importance of a good first impression seems lost on the TTC, based on readers' responses.
Many recall when the stations were spotless and set the standard for North American public transit. People took pride in that reputation. Their memories may have grown rosier over time, but it makes the current state of affairs even harder for them to fathom.
"Go to any station and you will see a thick black coating of grime on the platforms," emailed Leo Gonzalez. "I still remember when those terrazzo floors used to shine, and I'm only in my 30s."
"Shabby is an understatement," wrote Jeff Harvey. "The bus depot (at Eglinton station) is dark, dingy and dirty – a dungeon. Donlands station appears out of a war zone, with a leaky roof and ripped-open ceiling that's been like this for years. It is usually carpeted with litter."
"The roof has leaked for a long time, but (lately) it has been an indoor rainstorm," wrote Sara Lipson of Kipling station. "The problem is so widespread that the temporary fixes do little to stop raindrops from falling on our heads."
"If I was a city health inspector, I would close down the washrooms," wrote Andrew Murphy. "They are absolutely disgusting. At least I can stand up. I wouldn't want to sit on any toilet seat."
One reader complained the inside bus platforms at Kipling are cleaned, "but not the outside ones. Vomit from the weekend is still there Tuesday or Wednesday."
Shawn McCabe, a TTC janitor, called to say "you're taking a shot at us, as usual, and it's a one-sided affair. But the public has to take some responsibility. Sometimes they sit on a bench next to a garbage can and just dump garbage on the floor. The public has to take pride in the stations."
A reader who asked not to be named said he worked as a TTC janitor for two summers, and "there is a culture of apathy and laziness," among cleaning staff.
"Sleeping, playing Frisbee across the tracks, two-hour-long smoke breaks, all of these are not uncommon. Heck, I've seen afternoon shift employees go watch movies at Cineplex in the middle of their shifts."
Comments from readers were so vivid we totalled up some of the descriptions. "Filthy" came up 23 times and "disgusting" 15 times.
Dirt was the most frequently raised problem at 76 times, followed by 47 garbage complaints, 15 of which mentioned the need for more litter receptacles. There were 28 complaints about escalators, elevators and doors, 24 about station repairs, 25 about service and staff, 18 about leaky roofs and water, 14 about snow, 11 about free newspapers, eight about unfinished construction, eight about washrooms and seven about signage.
Councillor Adam Giambrone, who chairs the TTC, says the people who've complained about deteriorating conditions are wrong, and that the stations are cleaner than they were a couple of years ago, according to system audits.
"It takes a while to move people's perceptions," said Giambrone. "You can't reverse the trend overnight. People do see cleaner stations (but) they don't register it.
"People are coming in and saying they do see a difference because there used to be more paper on the tracks. Is it as clean as they'd like? No. But the fact is, things are getting better. It's measurable."
TTC managers are understandably touchy about the criticism.
"Sure, we know the washrooms are bad," says Gary Shortt, the TTC's superintendent of plant maintenance, stressing that a program to replace old plumbing fixtures with automated ones in the system's 10 washrooms is nearing completion. Customer complaints about washrooms have since dropped by 36 per cent, he said.
Janitorial staff is stretched thin, with a total of 248 cleaners to cover the entire system. The total number of dayshift cleaners during the week is just 38. To make matters worse, 2008 TTC budget documents show a daily absentee rate of 12 per cent among cleaners.
There's a lot more to cleaning a subway station than it might seem, said Shortt. For example, the black grime coating so many surfaces is a fine dust created when the brakes on trains are applied as they slow while pulling into stations.
Over time, brake dust builds up on everything and special equipment is needed to remove it in some areas, he said.
"People notice that the tiles on the wall across from the platform are covered with it, but we can't just send a janitor over there," with a brush and a bucket of soapy water said Shortt.
Cleaning staff are not allowed to work at track level due to the electrified third rail in the tracks, which means a flatbed rail car is needed, which can only be used late at night, when the subway has stopped running.
When a flatbed car is available, the cleaning must be done by maintenance workers instead of janitorial staff, which further complicates the job because the first priority for maintenance staff is usually track repairs, which must also be done when the subway isn't running, he said.
Despite the cash squeeze, the TTC has substantial plans for improvements, which will be the subject of a feature article next Saturday.
We're not doing this just to dump on the TTC or proffer outrageous quotes. We're hoping it will compel the TTC and the city councillors who oversee it to take the problem more seriously and move it much higher up on the list of priorities.
And we'll be asking each commissioner what they personally intend to do to fix the problem.
wyliepoon
Senior Member
DIRT
Mar 08, 2008 04:30 AM
We've compiled our readers' biggest complaints about various aspects of the TTC: dirt, garbage, faulty escalators, service and repairs.
Re: Warden Station Filthy staircases, dirty floors and on stairwells, grime on walls, slippery floors after snowfall, closed lavatory at times (one broken urinoir since a week ago in the men's room), filthy trains in the afternoon, signal problems and lateness plus subway car problems on almost a daily basis. This litany can go on and on; in summary, the TTC is a disgrace to the city of Toronto!
Jusni Hilwan
The new chair of the TTC is probably too young to remember, but 25 years ago, all the subway stations were washed and polished routinely. The fluorescent light covers were taken down and washed in a mobile bath. The wall tiles and ceiling slats were all washed and it presented a clean, cared-for look. The floors were washed with a machine that washes and vacuums the water in one pass. Today the subway is filthy.
Alan Leslie
The glass windows of the fairly large waiting area at ground level in the Wellesley subway station were so filthy I would have been embarrassed to have a visitor from out of town with me. I called TTC and requested they be cleaned. They did a very lousy job and really just moved the dirt around. Why? I realize that the glass doors are constantly pushed open by riders so the glass gets marked - but giving it a daily cleaning can't be that expensive.
Sally Dales
You can't see the mess now because of the snow cover; however, the south entrance to the Bayview station is always a mess. There are a few bushes outside the station and they act as a trap for newspapers, cigarette buts, coffee cups, etc. I think that the area was raked once in the past four years. The TTC cleans the inside regularly but neglect the outside completely.
George Dimou
Wellesley St. station is certainly one of the dirtiest subway stations in the city. The building is old and in bad repair, the floors dirty, the whole design ugly. The sidewalk outside the entrance doors is cluttered with containers and ugly newspaper boxes. Beggars often accost passengers. The whole place is a disgrace to this city.
Jurgen Racherbaumer
Most of the subway stations are in need of paint, new tiling; they are dirty and messy. The cars are somewhat better but they too look old and dirty. With the resources of Toronto, how can Miller let this continue. The terrible appearance begins at Union Station and continues throughout the system. The Mayor, the City Council and all of us who use the TTC should be thoroughly embarrassed. I used to take visitors on a TTC ride to show them how a big city looks. Today it just looks awful. Mayor Miller needs to start somewhere, show some leadership and get rid of Giambrone. He is not up to the job. And finally, quit blaming Queen's Park and Ottawa, take control of your own problems. Now.
Mitch Banks, Burlington
I have stopped using the TTC as the experience gives me the creeps. The stations are filthy; the subway cars are so dirty it's beyond words. When your boots stick to the floor of the subway cars as bottles and cans roll around, you know it is time "to find another way". The litter thrown on the tracks, especially at Union is unbelievable...I worry it will cause an accident. I live close to Jane Station.. the state of the exterior property is so poorly maintained, the TTC shows it self as a poor neighbour. Check out the graffitti at High Park station (Quebec Ave entrance).
Peggy Bonnell-Prince
I rarely use the subway these days but the one I use the most when I do is Finch/Yonge - I am constantly shocked at the state of disrepair and filth as I go down the stairs from the parking lot - I am 73 and have lived in TO all my life and thus ridden the subway since the day it opened - the conditions now are a disgrace to our city
Rhea Copeland
There is no doubt that TTC vehicles and stations are much dirtier today than they have ever been. There are so many problems that it will be difficult to list them all, but here are the main ones: Subway Cars: aside from litter on the floor, the seats can be quite disgusting. The old vinyl seats on the H-series cars never seemed to get so dirty, but the state of the current ones is not acceptable. It really does not look like they are ever cleaned. Subway Stations: Go to almost any station on BD and you will see a thick black coating of grime on the platforms (this is especially true the further away you are from an exit). I still remember when those terrazzo floors used to shine, and I'm only in my 30's. Buses and streetcars: same problem with the new seats. They're never cleaned. Windows: whether they are in a station, on a subway car, bus or streetcar, CLEAN THEM.
Leo Gonzalez
*****
GARBAGE
There's quite a bit more trash lying around on the platform and sitting in the trackbed since the TTC got rid of all its garbage cans. I'm not denying that people are inherently slobs, but why were these removed if more security-conscious cities like NYC and LA can still use platform-level receptacles?
Mike Watson
Originally I am from Asia and have been in Canada for the past 12 years now. I love Canada and I thank God everyday for giving me a chance to live in this beautiful and great Canada. I am proud to be a Canadian. Recently, I have noticed that when people read free newspapers (24Hours, The Metro), they leave them behind on their seat or chuck them under their seat. It's very annoying and I am not sure why people do that. It takes less then a minute and weighs next to nothing. I am sure one can carry it and dump it in the recycle bin. I have tried to follow people and pick up their littered newspaper and thrown it in the appropriate bin but it's just sad to see grown up adults do that. I am sure they keep their house clean. Maybe people should be penalized for littering in transit system.
Pavan Puri
I have a simple and inexpensive solution for improving the Yorkdale subway station. Put garbage (and recycling) bins on the subway platform! I am forced to carry garbage outside the station, a courtesy very few transit riders have the patience to do.
Larry Perlman
Free newspapers, Buy and Sell, Condo Life etc. distributed at bus and subway stations cause the biggest mess, both in the stations and on the tracks. Recycling bins overflow and some papers don't even get there. Owners of papers who get the advertising money should be billed for the clean up, or stop publishing.
Elaine Reuben
Yes the stations are messy but for regular everyday riders like me (30 years of it so far) the problem is more with the litter INSIDE the subway cars. Coffee cups -- banana skins -- bottles of water/pop/juice rolling around -- apple cores -- hamburger cartons -- candy wrappers --- and above all the free newspapers. Noone owns them so no-one cares about them. How about receptacles for them inside the cars? With signs saying "please put the free papers here not on the floor". The TTC announcements don't help either. They say "take all your personal belongings with you when you leave the train". Fine. But a free newspaper isn't anyone's personal belonging. So let's fix the PA messages. Why can't we have announcements asking people straight out not to leave anything on the floor of the train? Why not have signs in the cars asking people not to litter. Why not use those hooks where they hang TTC promotional pamphlets and put a stack of small garbage bags there instead, rather like the "sick bags" you find in airplanes. That might help people take their stuff out and dump it in the garbage bins. ... I would even pick up other people's stuff if there was a bag handy to do it in!
Steve Wadhams
The garbage cans at the top of the escalator on the east side of the Yonge/St. Clair station are so often not emptied that the garbage spills over on to the floor.
Harriet Wagman
Cleanliness can really be improved in all stations, but the garbage left on the tracks after hosing down at night is disgraceful at Bloor and Yonge.
Dave Butters
Have you ever heard of the 'Broken Window Theory'? It was the brainchild of criminologists James Q. Wilson & George Kelling. The premise is ... if a window is broken and left unrepaired, people will conclude that no one cares and no one is in charge ... a 'SO WHAT' attitude ensues. I think Toronto's TTC is suffering from the Broken Window Theory ... and it all started with the free newspapers. I've lived in Toronto since 1975 and I thought the TTC was extremely clean considering the usage ... then came the free newspapers. First came the litter, then the dirt, half-finished repairs and OH, the mice on the tracks! Those free newspapers are dirty, environmentally un-friendly, messy, a nuisance and downright disgusting. People see the newspapers blowing all over the place and think "SO WHAT, it's dirty and messy anyway, so what difference does it make if I add to it ... it's obvious no one notices or even cares." Monkey-see/monkey-do. Sure, the newspapers are free, but how much extra does it cost the TTC maintenance, and ultimately us as taxpayers, to clean this mess up? Even if the newspaper publishers pay the extra for clean-up, do they pay for the resulting 'Broken Window' attitude? In July 2000, Howard Moscoe hit the alarm button, but nobody listened and now we're paying the price. We need PRIDE OF PLACE again ... get rid of the free newspapers!!!
Bonnie Dell
*****
REPAIRS
When you walk down on to the first level of the Finch subway station to get to the trains from the bus platforms, there has been a "DANGER - DO NOT ENTER" sign around about a one square metre area that seems to be leaking (or dripping) dirty water. I don't even really know because I'm too scared to peer over the sign and see how really disgusting it is. I swear this sign has been around for months. And instead of it being cleared away, the gated area has been EXTENDED all the way to the wall. So now instead of two narrow pathways around the damn thing, pedestrian traffic is forced to flow to only one side of the walkway. I know everyone who uses this station on a regular basis is probably just as annoyed and frustrated as I am on seeing this thing day after day, slowing down my way to get to the trains and buses.
Heather Li
In response to your article about the condition of the TTC; I was waiting at Yonge-Lawrence station and counted 6 leaks from the ceiling dripping water on the platform. The same day in Eglinton station there was a thick greenish substance dripping from the wall onto the floor with only a piece of cardboard and some masking tape to stop the spread of goo through the tunnel. The cardboard was not effective and it just looked gross.
Bruce McGrath
I have noticed since early May 2007 when I regularly started taking one of the buses from the Davisville station that there has been an unfinished project wherein part of the driveway is blocked by some sort of wood cladding which results in there only being enough room for one bus. This results in buses being caught behind the 97 Yonge bus and has to sit there until the Yonge bus moves. What the TTC are working on, who knows. Why they have left it this way, who knows. Any help would be appreciated!
K. MacDonald
The St. Clair station is just plain ugly and deteriorated. Outside on the south side of St. Clair there is a hand-painted sign telling of no entry to the streetcar platform. Also, the front doors rarely close. From the subway platform one sees a mess of wires above where the ceiling panels have been missing for ages. It also leaks. In addition, there was supposed to be elevator accessibility added for the many seniors and other residents who reside here, but I see nothing yet. This is an upscale neighbourhood and yet this busy station must be the most rundown in the city, from what I have seen.
Gary Brown
The walkway from the Eglinton subway station to the bus platform has had water leakage problems from the very beginning - the paint is peeling, the cinderblocks are exposed and it is disgusting. It obviously was not properly built in the first instance and it has been a continuing problem as well as an eyesore. Also, I have complained to the TTC numerous times about the clocks above the subway platform at Wilson station being the wrong time (they are fast - I forget by how much - maybe 8 minutes? - this has not been fixed).
Alisa Posesorski
The roof of the mezzanine above the subway tracks in Kipling Station leaks in many places. The mezzanine is the indoor area where transit riders wait for their buses to arrive. The roof has leaked for a long time, but for the past couple days it has been an indoor rainstorm. TTC crew have put up some buckets and barriers and have salted the floor, but the problem is so widespread that these temporary fixes do little to stop the raindrops falling on our heads. There are icicles hanging from the ceiling and walls of ice building up on the windows.
Sara Lipson
The ceiling between the platform level and the fares level at the Royal York station has been leaking and dismantled since before I moved into the neighbourhood, (which was the summer of 2005). Secondly, last year Royal York Road as resurfaced and the entrance to the station was re-landscaped. At this time new heritage lighting as installed in front of the station. It has never worked. The reason? It is clearly visible from the ground that the wires have never been connected?
Paul Shearer
There are big holes in the ceiling and plaster is waiting to fall on track line in the St. Andrew station.
Robert Stark
St. Clair in the last two years has been a very sad and frustrating experience for all TTC patrons. The straw that broke the camels' back for my wife and I has to be the incredibly long wait for St. Clair West Station rail work to be completed. This was due for completion in Sept. 07 then moved to Oct. and now in March 08 there is no information on the still unfinished rail work! There is just one section left to do but that was months ago. It's been a long cold haul having to leave the station and go a block to the nearest outside streetcar stop in order to go eastbound. My wife walks with a cane and it's been very disheartening for her. They now let you off into this underground construction hell, which is poorly lit and sometimes littered with bits of debris if you want to get into the subway from a westbound car.
Grant Smales
*****
ESCALATORS AND ELEVATORS
I believe they are re-building the (down) escalator at the north end of the York Mills subway platform. This project has been going on for many months. I can't imagine what it must cost and I can't remember the last time that it appeared that any progress was being made. The irony here, is that prior to this project and I assume, in anticipation and preparation for it, an entire new entrance/exit stairwell and elevator was installed at the EXTREME north end of the platform which to me, seemed to appear from nowhere. However, it IS at the extreme north end and very few people seem to use it. Why is the escalator project taking so long? I read an article recently about parts and inventory for spare parts and the costs but I've seen entire multi-storied buildings go up faster than this project. Why start these projects if they can't be finished in a timely manner. As far as I'm concerned, this escalator project is exactly like the entire Sheppard subway line. It starts somewhere,(where the demand is high) and then goes nowhere. What's the point?
Rob Cowan
At the Sheppard/Yonge subway all three levels of escalators are often out of service, this week since Tuesday the level from the bus drop off both escalators are out, no one has been working on them, the water leaks all over different levels of the station to create a very slippery surface and it is dangerous.
Lynne Assness
Eglinton has a 15-step escalator that's been out of service since August. The latest sign (at least not hand-printed) says it'll be ready by April 1 (coincidence?).
Jeff Harvey
For more than the past month the escalator from the northbound subway at the College station has invariably been turned off during the morning rush hour. I estimate that it has been operational 1 day during the week. I use a cane and it is difficult to climb the stairs, especially during rush hour when there are a lot of people behind you. There has not been any maintenance or any sign indicating that it is broken - it just seems not to be on.
Jane Meadus
A main escalator at the entrance has been "under repair" for several months, since August to be exact, at Eglinton Subway Station. There appears to be no work being done on it at all. As this is a very busy station, this has resulted in quite crowded conditions. I myself have witnessed one serious fall of an older gentleman. How long will it take for this escalator to be repaired?
Kelly Fitzgerald
I travel on 109B/or109C Bus each day to Lawrence West Subway Station and travel by subway to Queens Park. My times of Travel are 7 am and 4:30 pm. Several days this past week (and this happened far too often) the escalators at either/or both ends are out of service !! I am talking about the ascending escalators. This makes things most difficult for people with heart/lung problems. I understand maintenance is necessary at times but when it is happening sooooooooooo frequently, maybe it is time for replacement.
Susan Freedman
Why aren't the new escalators in the Don Mills station being properly maintained. What is the problem: purchasing error, difficulty in getting parts or lazy employees. When I started my job in 2003 the Don Mills escalators(at least one) was down 2 times a week from March 2003 to March 2004. Since then I have stopped counting. Now they are doing maintenance on one of the escalators and completion date is the end of Feb. I got involved with the Rockeriders after my father in 1999 or 2000 could no longer use the escalators as they were always down at the start point or finish point or both. The union did a rebuild of Keele Subway eastbound escalator 3 times in a year and a half. I suggest that it is a tug of war between 1950's engineers who run the system and who do not use 21st technology or marketing techniques and a union leader who admires Jimmy Hoffa (and Jimmy, it should be remembered, stole from his union members pension fund and was wacked by the mob). The passengers don't win. I ride the TTC 20 hours a week, and if I had a car, I wouldn't.
May Usuberg
The escalator at the south end of the platform of the Downsview station (used by the majority of passengers since it is closest to the buses) has been closed for maintenance for just over a month. The sign posted saying when it will re-open has changed from Jan 18th, to Jan 23, to Feb 8 and now stands at Feb 15th. Given I've seen no work being done at either 8am or 5pm when passing by, nor no real sign from one day to the next of work having been done, I'm skeptical of the current planned completion date. I prefer to take the stairs, so my only impact is the crowd of people forced to ascend under their own power, but I'm curious to know the planning process that can be so completely off on the estimation of how long the job will take. Surely when they plan the task they know whether it will take a few days versus over a month. The result of the always moving end-date just leaves one feeling that one can never trust anything posted.
Ian Reid
*****
SERVICE
At Bathurst N. & Sheppard W. why are some new bus shelters located such distance from the Stop poles? This is the worst spot, there is no way a person can get there once the bus is approaching from the East. At the Yonge & Finch and Yonge & Sheppard stations the automatic doors often break down and it takes months to fix them. In winter they let in the cold, when they open unnecessary (on approaching). How about the regular push-out doors? They always work.
Agota Sandorfy
Re: TTC Buses 76 Royal York South and 15 Evans Ave South. Between the hours of 7:30 a.m. —9 a.m. and 2:30 p.m. — 4 p.m. one cannot catch a bus to Royal York Subway Station. Why? One Catholic High School (Bishop Allen), one Public High School (Etobicoke School of the Arts and one Catholic French Junior Middle School. TTC should have Express short turn buses to solve this problem. Take the bus from Royal York Subway Station to the Queensway. Short turn the bus where the fire station is, turn right to the Queensway and back to Royal York Subway Station. The buses are packed with school kids, and they wait too. This problem has been going on for a long time, and the TTC knows about it and doesn't care. So I have a $100.00 bus pas that is only good to wait 30 mins. to get to the subway station while 4 TTC buses go by crammed with kids.
Kenneth Maier
Meadowvale-Ellesmere: My complaint is with the TTC drivers, The last two snow storms, I have tried to flag down buses in between stops as it was impossible to stand at a stop that has not been plowed. I waved repeatedly and was simply ignored. I know they saw me, I'm 61 years old with a cane, which should have made a difference. This is at 10.30 at night. When are these guys going to realize that they are serving the public? By the way, I had to walk on the street because sidewalk on the bridge was not plowed.
Elfriede Tanner
Grubby and rundown would be OK if only there would not be a problem EVERY SINGLE DAY SEVERAL TIMES A DAY resulting either in completely disrupted operations or long delays. I don't know where our dollars go! Fares are highest in North America! It is disgusting! One has to leave home 1 hour earlier than necessary just to get to work on time, already shaking with stress. The whole system is a world class shame. TTC management has to be colossally stupid, or dishonest, or both.
Veronika Andrasofszky
The decrepit transit shelter at Brooklyn and Queen (it leaks, and had a tree sprouting out the top until winter came) was grafittied a couple of weeks ago and while Astral found the time to clean the paint off the ad face, they left the rest of it... I wrote to the company to no avail. This show of disrespect by the company that has been entrusted with our street furniture for what, 20 years?, does not bode well...
R. Davidson
I live on Lakeshore Blvd W a few blocks west of Mimco. We used to have a streetcar/bus stop at Douglas Blvd & Lakeshore Blvd W with a shelter but recently they put in a new traffic light one block over. Now the stop is on a corner by a building which has a fence surrounding it which means there is no room for a shelter. Now whenever there is rain, wind, snow or some other bad weather people are subjected to the elements since there is no shelter to wait in/under. Maybe the stop can be moved back.
Dave MacLean
Mar 08, 2008 04:30 AM
We've compiled our readers' biggest complaints about various aspects of the TTC: dirt, garbage, faulty escalators, service and repairs.
Re: Warden Station Filthy staircases, dirty floors and on stairwells, grime on walls, slippery floors after snowfall, closed lavatory at times (one broken urinoir since a week ago in the men's room), filthy trains in the afternoon, signal problems and lateness plus subway car problems on almost a daily basis. This litany can go on and on; in summary, the TTC is a disgrace to the city of Toronto!
Jusni Hilwan
The new chair of the TTC is probably too young to remember, but 25 years ago, all the subway stations were washed and polished routinely. The fluorescent light covers were taken down and washed in a mobile bath. The wall tiles and ceiling slats were all washed and it presented a clean, cared-for look. The floors were washed with a machine that washes and vacuums the water in one pass. Today the subway is filthy.
Alan Leslie
The glass windows of the fairly large waiting area at ground level in the Wellesley subway station were so filthy I would have been embarrassed to have a visitor from out of town with me. I called TTC and requested they be cleaned. They did a very lousy job and really just moved the dirt around. Why? I realize that the glass doors are constantly pushed open by riders so the glass gets marked - but giving it a daily cleaning can't be that expensive.
Sally Dales
You can't see the mess now because of the snow cover; however, the south entrance to the Bayview station is always a mess. There are a few bushes outside the station and they act as a trap for newspapers, cigarette buts, coffee cups, etc. I think that the area was raked once in the past four years. The TTC cleans the inside regularly but neglect the outside completely.
George Dimou
Wellesley St. station is certainly one of the dirtiest subway stations in the city. The building is old and in bad repair, the floors dirty, the whole design ugly. The sidewalk outside the entrance doors is cluttered with containers and ugly newspaper boxes. Beggars often accost passengers. The whole place is a disgrace to this city.
Jurgen Racherbaumer
Most of the subway stations are in need of paint, new tiling; they are dirty and messy. The cars are somewhat better but they too look old and dirty. With the resources of Toronto, how can Miller let this continue. The terrible appearance begins at Union Station and continues throughout the system. The Mayor, the City Council and all of us who use the TTC should be thoroughly embarrassed. I used to take visitors on a TTC ride to show them how a big city looks. Today it just looks awful. Mayor Miller needs to start somewhere, show some leadership and get rid of Giambrone. He is not up to the job. And finally, quit blaming Queen's Park and Ottawa, take control of your own problems. Now.
Mitch Banks, Burlington
I have stopped using the TTC as the experience gives me the creeps. The stations are filthy; the subway cars are so dirty it's beyond words. When your boots stick to the floor of the subway cars as bottles and cans roll around, you know it is time "to find another way". The litter thrown on the tracks, especially at Union is unbelievable...I worry it will cause an accident. I live close to Jane Station.. the state of the exterior property is so poorly maintained, the TTC shows it self as a poor neighbour. Check out the graffitti at High Park station (Quebec Ave entrance).
Peggy Bonnell-Prince
I rarely use the subway these days but the one I use the most when I do is Finch/Yonge - I am constantly shocked at the state of disrepair and filth as I go down the stairs from the parking lot - I am 73 and have lived in TO all my life and thus ridden the subway since the day it opened - the conditions now are a disgrace to our city
Rhea Copeland
There is no doubt that TTC vehicles and stations are much dirtier today than they have ever been. There are so many problems that it will be difficult to list them all, but here are the main ones: Subway Cars: aside from litter on the floor, the seats can be quite disgusting. The old vinyl seats on the H-series cars never seemed to get so dirty, but the state of the current ones is not acceptable. It really does not look like they are ever cleaned. Subway Stations: Go to almost any station on BD and you will see a thick black coating of grime on the platforms (this is especially true the further away you are from an exit). I still remember when those terrazzo floors used to shine, and I'm only in my 30's. Buses and streetcars: same problem with the new seats. They're never cleaned. Windows: whether they are in a station, on a subway car, bus or streetcar, CLEAN THEM.
Leo Gonzalez
*****
GARBAGE
There's quite a bit more trash lying around on the platform and sitting in the trackbed since the TTC got rid of all its garbage cans. I'm not denying that people are inherently slobs, but why were these removed if more security-conscious cities like NYC and LA can still use platform-level receptacles?
Mike Watson
Originally I am from Asia and have been in Canada for the past 12 years now. I love Canada and I thank God everyday for giving me a chance to live in this beautiful and great Canada. I am proud to be a Canadian. Recently, I have noticed that when people read free newspapers (24Hours, The Metro), they leave them behind on their seat or chuck them under their seat. It's very annoying and I am not sure why people do that. It takes less then a minute and weighs next to nothing. I am sure one can carry it and dump it in the recycle bin. I have tried to follow people and pick up their littered newspaper and thrown it in the appropriate bin but it's just sad to see grown up adults do that. I am sure they keep their house clean. Maybe people should be penalized for littering in transit system.
Pavan Puri
I have a simple and inexpensive solution for improving the Yorkdale subway station. Put garbage (and recycling) bins on the subway platform! I am forced to carry garbage outside the station, a courtesy very few transit riders have the patience to do.
Larry Perlman
Free newspapers, Buy and Sell, Condo Life etc. distributed at bus and subway stations cause the biggest mess, both in the stations and on the tracks. Recycling bins overflow and some papers don't even get there. Owners of papers who get the advertising money should be billed for the clean up, or stop publishing.
Elaine Reuben
Yes the stations are messy but for regular everyday riders like me (30 years of it so far) the problem is more with the litter INSIDE the subway cars. Coffee cups -- banana skins -- bottles of water/pop/juice rolling around -- apple cores -- hamburger cartons -- candy wrappers --- and above all the free newspapers. Noone owns them so no-one cares about them. How about receptacles for them inside the cars? With signs saying "please put the free papers here not on the floor". The TTC announcements don't help either. They say "take all your personal belongings with you when you leave the train". Fine. But a free newspaper isn't anyone's personal belonging. So let's fix the PA messages. Why can't we have announcements asking people straight out not to leave anything on the floor of the train? Why not have signs in the cars asking people not to litter. Why not use those hooks where they hang TTC promotional pamphlets and put a stack of small garbage bags there instead, rather like the "sick bags" you find in airplanes. That might help people take their stuff out and dump it in the garbage bins. ... I would even pick up other people's stuff if there was a bag handy to do it in!
Steve Wadhams
The garbage cans at the top of the escalator on the east side of the Yonge/St. Clair station are so often not emptied that the garbage spills over on to the floor.
Harriet Wagman
Cleanliness can really be improved in all stations, but the garbage left on the tracks after hosing down at night is disgraceful at Bloor and Yonge.
Dave Butters
Have you ever heard of the 'Broken Window Theory'? It was the brainchild of criminologists James Q. Wilson & George Kelling. The premise is ... if a window is broken and left unrepaired, people will conclude that no one cares and no one is in charge ... a 'SO WHAT' attitude ensues. I think Toronto's TTC is suffering from the Broken Window Theory ... and it all started with the free newspapers. I've lived in Toronto since 1975 and I thought the TTC was extremely clean considering the usage ... then came the free newspapers. First came the litter, then the dirt, half-finished repairs and OH, the mice on the tracks! Those free newspapers are dirty, environmentally un-friendly, messy, a nuisance and downright disgusting. People see the newspapers blowing all over the place and think "SO WHAT, it's dirty and messy anyway, so what difference does it make if I add to it ... it's obvious no one notices or even cares." Monkey-see/monkey-do. Sure, the newspapers are free, but how much extra does it cost the TTC maintenance, and ultimately us as taxpayers, to clean this mess up? Even if the newspaper publishers pay the extra for clean-up, do they pay for the resulting 'Broken Window' attitude? In July 2000, Howard Moscoe hit the alarm button, but nobody listened and now we're paying the price. We need PRIDE OF PLACE again ... get rid of the free newspapers!!!
Bonnie Dell
*****
REPAIRS
When you walk down on to the first level of the Finch subway station to get to the trains from the bus platforms, there has been a "DANGER - DO NOT ENTER" sign around about a one square metre area that seems to be leaking (or dripping) dirty water. I don't even really know because I'm too scared to peer over the sign and see how really disgusting it is. I swear this sign has been around for months. And instead of it being cleared away, the gated area has been EXTENDED all the way to the wall. So now instead of two narrow pathways around the damn thing, pedestrian traffic is forced to flow to only one side of the walkway. I know everyone who uses this station on a regular basis is probably just as annoyed and frustrated as I am on seeing this thing day after day, slowing down my way to get to the trains and buses.
Heather Li
In response to your article about the condition of the TTC; I was waiting at Yonge-Lawrence station and counted 6 leaks from the ceiling dripping water on the platform. The same day in Eglinton station there was a thick greenish substance dripping from the wall onto the floor with only a piece of cardboard and some masking tape to stop the spread of goo through the tunnel. The cardboard was not effective and it just looked gross.
Bruce McGrath
I have noticed since early May 2007 when I regularly started taking one of the buses from the Davisville station that there has been an unfinished project wherein part of the driveway is blocked by some sort of wood cladding which results in there only being enough room for one bus. This results in buses being caught behind the 97 Yonge bus and has to sit there until the Yonge bus moves. What the TTC are working on, who knows. Why they have left it this way, who knows. Any help would be appreciated!
K. MacDonald
The St. Clair station is just plain ugly and deteriorated. Outside on the south side of St. Clair there is a hand-painted sign telling of no entry to the streetcar platform. Also, the front doors rarely close. From the subway platform one sees a mess of wires above where the ceiling panels have been missing for ages. It also leaks. In addition, there was supposed to be elevator accessibility added for the many seniors and other residents who reside here, but I see nothing yet. This is an upscale neighbourhood and yet this busy station must be the most rundown in the city, from what I have seen.
Gary Brown
The walkway from the Eglinton subway station to the bus platform has had water leakage problems from the very beginning - the paint is peeling, the cinderblocks are exposed and it is disgusting. It obviously was not properly built in the first instance and it has been a continuing problem as well as an eyesore. Also, I have complained to the TTC numerous times about the clocks above the subway platform at Wilson station being the wrong time (they are fast - I forget by how much - maybe 8 minutes? - this has not been fixed).
Alisa Posesorski
The roof of the mezzanine above the subway tracks in Kipling Station leaks in many places. The mezzanine is the indoor area where transit riders wait for their buses to arrive. The roof has leaked for a long time, but for the past couple days it has been an indoor rainstorm. TTC crew have put up some buckets and barriers and have salted the floor, but the problem is so widespread that these temporary fixes do little to stop the raindrops falling on our heads. There are icicles hanging from the ceiling and walls of ice building up on the windows.
Sara Lipson
The ceiling between the platform level and the fares level at the Royal York station has been leaking and dismantled since before I moved into the neighbourhood, (which was the summer of 2005). Secondly, last year Royal York Road as resurfaced and the entrance to the station was re-landscaped. At this time new heritage lighting as installed in front of the station. It has never worked. The reason? It is clearly visible from the ground that the wires have never been connected?
Paul Shearer
There are big holes in the ceiling and plaster is waiting to fall on track line in the St. Andrew station.
Robert Stark
St. Clair in the last two years has been a very sad and frustrating experience for all TTC patrons. The straw that broke the camels' back for my wife and I has to be the incredibly long wait for St. Clair West Station rail work to be completed. This was due for completion in Sept. 07 then moved to Oct. and now in March 08 there is no information on the still unfinished rail work! There is just one section left to do but that was months ago. It's been a long cold haul having to leave the station and go a block to the nearest outside streetcar stop in order to go eastbound. My wife walks with a cane and it's been very disheartening for her. They now let you off into this underground construction hell, which is poorly lit and sometimes littered with bits of debris if you want to get into the subway from a westbound car.
Grant Smales
*****
ESCALATORS AND ELEVATORS
I believe they are re-building the (down) escalator at the north end of the York Mills subway platform. This project has been going on for many months. I can't imagine what it must cost and I can't remember the last time that it appeared that any progress was being made. The irony here, is that prior to this project and I assume, in anticipation and preparation for it, an entire new entrance/exit stairwell and elevator was installed at the EXTREME north end of the platform which to me, seemed to appear from nowhere. However, it IS at the extreme north end and very few people seem to use it. Why is the escalator project taking so long? I read an article recently about parts and inventory for spare parts and the costs but I've seen entire multi-storied buildings go up faster than this project. Why start these projects if they can't be finished in a timely manner. As far as I'm concerned, this escalator project is exactly like the entire Sheppard subway line. It starts somewhere,(where the demand is high) and then goes nowhere. What's the point?
Rob Cowan
At the Sheppard/Yonge subway all three levels of escalators are often out of service, this week since Tuesday the level from the bus drop off both escalators are out, no one has been working on them, the water leaks all over different levels of the station to create a very slippery surface and it is dangerous.
Lynne Assness
Eglinton has a 15-step escalator that's been out of service since August. The latest sign (at least not hand-printed) says it'll be ready by April 1 (coincidence?).
Jeff Harvey
For more than the past month the escalator from the northbound subway at the College station has invariably been turned off during the morning rush hour. I estimate that it has been operational 1 day during the week. I use a cane and it is difficult to climb the stairs, especially during rush hour when there are a lot of people behind you. There has not been any maintenance or any sign indicating that it is broken - it just seems not to be on.
Jane Meadus
A main escalator at the entrance has been "under repair" for several months, since August to be exact, at Eglinton Subway Station. There appears to be no work being done on it at all. As this is a very busy station, this has resulted in quite crowded conditions. I myself have witnessed one serious fall of an older gentleman. How long will it take for this escalator to be repaired?
Kelly Fitzgerald
I travel on 109B/or109C Bus each day to Lawrence West Subway Station and travel by subway to Queens Park. My times of Travel are 7 am and 4:30 pm. Several days this past week (and this happened far too often) the escalators at either/or both ends are out of service !! I am talking about the ascending escalators. This makes things most difficult for people with heart/lung problems. I understand maintenance is necessary at times but when it is happening sooooooooooo frequently, maybe it is time for replacement.
Susan Freedman
Why aren't the new escalators in the Don Mills station being properly maintained. What is the problem: purchasing error, difficulty in getting parts or lazy employees. When I started my job in 2003 the Don Mills escalators(at least one) was down 2 times a week from March 2003 to March 2004. Since then I have stopped counting. Now they are doing maintenance on one of the escalators and completion date is the end of Feb. I got involved with the Rockeriders after my father in 1999 or 2000 could no longer use the escalators as they were always down at the start point or finish point or both. The union did a rebuild of Keele Subway eastbound escalator 3 times in a year and a half. I suggest that it is a tug of war between 1950's engineers who run the system and who do not use 21st technology or marketing techniques and a union leader who admires Jimmy Hoffa (and Jimmy, it should be remembered, stole from his union members pension fund and was wacked by the mob). The passengers don't win. I ride the TTC 20 hours a week, and if I had a car, I wouldn't.
May Usuberg
The escalator at the south end of the platform of the Downsview station (used by the majority of passengers since it is closest to the buses) has been closed for maintenance for just over a month. The sign posted saying when it will re-open has changed from Jan 18th, to Jan 23, to Feb 8 and now stands at Feb 15th. Given I've seen no work being done at either 8am or 5pm when passing by, nor no real sign from one day to the next of work having been done, I'm skeptical of the current planned completion date. I prefer to take the stairs, so my only impact is the crowd of people forced to ascend under their own power, but I'm curious to know the planning process that can be so completely off on the estimation of how long the job will take. Surely when they plan the task they know whether it will take a few days versus over a month. The result of the always moving end-date just leaves one feeling that one can never trust anything posted.
Ian Reid
*****
SERVICE
At Bathurst N. & Sheppard W. why are some new bus shelters located such distance from the Stop poles? This is the worst spot, there is no way a person can get there once the bus is approaching from the East. At the Yonge & Finch and Yonge & Sheppard stations the automatic doors often break down and it takes months to fix them. In winter they let in the cold, when they open unnecessary (on approaching). How about the regular push-out doors? They always work.
Agota Sandorfy
Re: TTC Buses 76 Royal York South and 15 Evans Ave South. Between the hours of 7:30 a.m. —9 a.m. and 2:30 p.m. — 4 p.m. one cannot catch a bus to Royal York Subway Station. Why? One Catholic High School (Bishop Allen), one Public High School (Etobicoke School of the Arts and one Catholic French Junior Middle School. TTC should have Express short turn buses to solve this problem. Take the bus from Royal York Subway Station to the Queensway. Short turn the bus where the fire station is, turn right to the Queensway and back to Royal York Subway Station. The buses are packed with school kids, and they wait too. This problem has been going on for a long time, and the TTC knows about it and doesn't care. So I have a $100.00 bus pas that is only good to wait 30 mins. to get to the subway station while 4 TTC buses go by crammed with kids.
Kenneth Maier
Meadowvale-Ellesmere: My complaint is with the TTC drivers, The last two snow storms, I have tried to flag down buses in between stops as it was impossible to stand at a stop that has not been plowed. I waved repeatedly and was simply ignored. I know they saw me, I'm 61 years old with a cane, which should have made a difference. This is at 10.30 at night. When are these guys going to realize that they are serving the public? By the way, I had to walk on the street because sidewalk on the bridge was not plowed.
Elfriede Tanner
Grubby and rundown would be OK if only there would not be a problem EVERY SINGLE DAY SEVERAL TIMES A DAY resulting either in completely disrupted operations or long delays. I don't know where our dollars go! Fares are highest in North America! It is disgusting! One has to leave home 1 hour earlier than necessary just to get to work on time, already shaking with stress. The whole system is a world class shame. TTC management has to be colossally stupid, or dishonest, or both.
Veronika Andrasofszky
The decrepit transit shelter at Brooklyn and Queen (it leaks, and had a tree sprouting out the top until winter came) was grafittied a couple of weeks ago and while Astral found the time to clean the paint off the ad face, they left the rest of it... I wrote to the company to no avail. This show of disrespect by the company that has been entrusted with our street furniture for what, 20 years?, does not bode well...
R. Davidson
I live on Lakeshore Blvd W a few blocks west of Mimco. We used to have a streetcar/bus stop at Douglas Blvd & Lakeshore Blvd W with a shelter but recently they put in a new traffic light one block over. Now the stop is on a corner by a building which has a fence surrounding it which means there is no room for a shelter. Now whenever there is rain, wind, snow or some other bad weather people are subjected to the elements since there is no shelter to wait in/under. Maybe the stop can be moved back.
Dave MacLean
taal
Senior Member
Maybe I'm just too "young" to remember, but in all my experience of riding subways I've very rarely felt the subways themselves are dirty ... the floor feels sticky??? ....
Moreover, the stations ... I do not find them dirty at all. You have to get one thing straight ... the dismal state of some of stations (i.e. finch station) and dirtyness are two seperate issues. Yes some stations are in dire need of repair, but dirty? hardly...
Moreover, the stations ... I do not find them dirty at all. You have to get one thing straight ... the dismal state of some of stations (i.e. finch station) and dirtyness are two seperate issues. Yes some stations are in dire need of repair, but dirty? hardly...
adma
Superstar
At one point this past week, I passed thru the St. Andrew's concourse from 200 King on east and thought to myself: would this be acceptable in Montreal? (For that matter, not being there lately, what's the condition of the Metro's public areas?)
Then I thought: hey, comfy old shoe, whatever...
Then I thought: hey, comfy old shoe, whatever...
Tuscani01
Senior Member
I was there last summer. They looked as sad as the TTC's stations. I didn't notice any litter within the trains though!
EnviroTO
Senior Member
I've never found the stations that dirty but they are definitely in disrepair. I think disrepair would probably make things look dirty for many people (e.g. missing slats on the roof or wall reveal an unfinished and dirty looking underside, water damage stains on the leaky roof, etc.) The only thing that seems actually dirty is track level which if it had been painted black originally would look clean. I have been on some really dirty streetcars though... usually newspapers and the odd pop can rolling from the front to the back as the vehicle accelerates and decelerates.
lordmandeep
Banned
thats what happens when you have cleaning staff payed as much as office workers...
ITcomputer
Active Member
It is.... well, for Harper it is.