Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Tuscani01]

That vote was only to overturn the memorandum of understanding where Finch was cancelled and replaced by the fully underground Eglinton LRT. It's only relevant to mention that it was passed under Ford within the overall context of what was going on.

The RT conversion to subway is favoured by local politicians and by the mayor. It's exactly met the criteria I set out in my post. It's even being supported by council! They may have said that they'll "go it alone", but they've also repeatedly said that they don't want to build projects without local support. You should be interpreting their threat to "go it alone" as a way of saying that they don't want the debate to go on any longer. It's more of a "Stop arguing or I'll pull the car over! I swear I'll do it!".

And besides, it's not really "going it alone" when the province isn't even fully funding it!

What the Ford years has taught us is that Metrolinx and the province tend to follow local political trends, and not the other way around.

And you just made my point. The Province won't back down on Finch now because they don't want the debate to go on any longer. Tory isn't going after Finch, and has made absolutely no indication that he would be doing so. With the Province on board with Smart Track, they pretty much have a green light to proceed.

 

[CDL.TO]

And you just made my point. The Province won't back down on Finch now because they don't want the debate to go on any longer. Tory isn't going after Finch, and has made absolutely no indication that he would be doing so. With the Province on board with Smart Track, they pretty much have a green light to proceed.

Not sure how I did that, seeing that my whole point is that the local political situation is demonstrably different when comparing Scarborough to Finch West, and that also (with the exception of GO projects) Metrolinx has never "gone it alone". Letting it die on the backburner due to lack of political will isn't "the debate going on". Instead deadlines keep getting pushed back, contracts fail to get issued and we end up with another "committed provincial project" for a future edition of Unbuilt Toronto.

For Finch, Tory isn't on board and neither are the local politicians. The province has no reason to move ahead when they would gain just as much political benefit from letting the project die (again, unless circumstances change). You seem to have an idea of a bunch of provincial bureaucrats and politicians who are really, really eager to get Finch West built. In reality, they don't even care that much about Finch West (god knows it doesn't even offer any major regional benefits) and would rather build something which isn't going to be a huge political headache.

They need buy in from local politicians for practical reasons as well. When things move along and streets need to get rebuilt and you need to work with the municipal bureaucrats and people are going to be inconvenienced by construction, you want to make sure that local politicians are going to have your back and aren't telling their constituents that "I never supported it anyway. It was those nasty Liberals who did this to you!".

 

[CDL.TO]

To add... Odds are just as good that *someone* will put pressure on Tory (could be the province or city councillors) and we'll start hearing him speaking in support of the Finch West LRT.

 

[aquateam]

Not sure how I did that, seeing that my whole point is that the local political situation is demonstrably different when comparing Scarborough to Finch West, and that also (with the exception of GO projects) Metrolinx has never "gone it alone". Letting it die on the backburner due to lack of political will isn't "the debate going on". Instead deadlines keep getting pushed back, contracts fail to get issued and we end up with another "committed provincial project" for a future edition of Unbuilt Toronto.

For Finch, Tory isn't on board and neither are the local politicians. The province has no reason to move ahead when they would gain just as much political benefit from letting the project die (again, unless circumstances change). You seem to have an idea of a bunch of provincial bureaucrats and politicians who are really, really eager to get Finch West built. In reality, they don't even care that much about Finch West (god knows it doesn't even offer any major regional benefits) and would rather build something which isn't going to be a huge political headache.

They need buy in from local politicians for practical reasons as well. When things move along and streets need to get rebuilt and you need to work with the municipal bureaucrats and people are going to be inconvenienced by construction, you want to make sure that local politicians are going to have your back and aren't telling their constituents that "I never supported it anyway. It was those nasty Liberals who did this to you!".

I'd just like to add that the province has a huge deficit and is looking to balance the budget. It took endless needling from Mayor Miller of Dalton McGuinty (to the point where he was "getting on his nerves") to get Transit City funded by the province, and the province ended up delaying all the projects to improve their cash flow situation. If the province can save a billion by dropping a project without any political consequences, they just might.

 

[gweed123]

One really has to question how much the Province actually wants the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs to proceed, given how much their completion date has slipped since the original Transit City timelines. Transit City was "killed" in early 2010 and resurrected in early 2012 (Scarborough debate notwithstanding). That's a delay of 2 years. Yet somehow the completion dates for the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs have slipped to 2-3x that amount. Sheppard East was tender-ready, or very close to it. There's no technical reason why the completion date needs to be pushed back 5 years as a result of a 2 year delay.

If the Province really wanted these things built, they could have pushed for aggressive timelines immediately upon Transit City being reinstated. Instead, they've pushed the timelines for even the start of construction so far off into the future that the number of elections between 2012 and the start of construction introduces a boatload of political variables, anyone of which could sink those projects.

Let's not forget how those lines wound up in the Big Move in the first place: they were identified as priorities in Transit City, and were adopted wholesale, timelines and all, into the Big Move. The Transit City priority lines are one of, if not the only projects in the entire Big Move that Metrolinx didn't have a hand in planning, because they're some of the few projects that pre-date Metrolinx itself. These are projects that Metrolinx merely adopted, not conceived. And they were adopted wholesale largely to avoid a spat with TO Council and the TTC, with Metrolinx being the new kid on the block at the time after all.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that Metrolinx/the Province is just as lukewarm on the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs as TO Council and John Tory is. "If they manage to survive at least 1 election at each level without someone stepping in and cancelling them, then go ahead and build them. If not, oh well." seems to be the underlying message here.

 

[BurlOak]

One really has to question how much the Province actually wants the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs to proceed, given how much their completion date has slipped since the original Transit City timelines. Transit City was "killed" in early 2010 and resurrected in early 2012 (Scarborough debate notwithstanding). That's a delay of 2 years. Yet somehow the completion dates for the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs have slipped to 2-3x that amount. Sheppard East was tender-ready, or very close to it. There's no technical reason why the completion date needs to be pushed back 5 years as a result of a 2 year delay.

If the Province really wanted these things built, they could have pushed for aggressive timelines immediately upon Transit City being reinstated. Instead, they've pushed the timelines for even the start of construction so far off into the future that the number of elections between 2012 and the start of construction introduces a boatload of political variables, anyone of which could sink those projects.

Let's not forget how those lines wound up in the Big Move in the first place: they were identified as priorities in Transit City, and were adopted wholesale, timelines and all, into the Big Move. The Transit City priority lines are one of, if not the only projects in the entire Big Move that Metrolinx didn't have a hand in planning, because they're some of the few projects that pre-date Metrolinx itself. These are projects that Metrolinx merely adopted, not conceived. And they were adopted wholesale largely to avoid a spat with TO Council and the TTC, with Metrolinx being the new kid on the block at the time after all.

If I were a betting man, I'd say that Metrolinx/the Province is just as lukewarm on the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs as TO Council and John Tory is. "If they manage to survive at least 1 election at each level without someone stepping in and cancelling them, then go ahead and build them. If not, oh well." seems to be the underlying message here.

I think you mean late 2010. Unless Miller "killed" Transit City - making the delay about a year and a half.

 

[44 North]

If I were a betting man, I'd say that Metrolinx/the Province is just as lukewarm on the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs as TO Council and John Tory is. "If they manage to survive at least 1 election at each level without someone stepping in and cancelling them, then go ahead and build them. If not, oh well." seems to be the underlying message here.

That's somewhat my feeling as well. Either that, or the plan for both will simply fizzle away altogether, and any allocated funds will instead go to SmartTrack. The irony is that the only construction seen for the SELRT was the grade-separation of the Stouffville line. So in a way, SmrtTrack is already benefiting from Transit City funds.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Debating BRT vs LRT for this route is a bit academic.....Mammo's proposal is to do NOTHING on this route (except buy Articulated buses). He seems to want to divert the budgeted money altogether. Replacing LRT with a BRT might save some dollars, but not on the magnitude he's seeking.

The thing I have never understood about the Finch line is....what market is it proposing to serve? It looks like a great plan to help people in the Northwest get to the Spadina Subway and downtown quicker - but is that really what people in the Northwest need most?

Any east-west line in the north end needs to enable direct, non-transfer trips across the top of the whole city. Building another smaller stub line just replicates the Sheppard Subway mistake...the money runs out, and we shift our focus somewhere else, but what was built doesn't accomplish enough to have been worth it.

It might make sense to shift the Finch money to maximise the reach of existing lines e.g. extend the Eglinton Crosstown to the Airport (that's an LRT for LRT swap, so LRT proponents shouldn't be opposed) and deal with Finch later. Or shift it to accelerate the Sheppard project (in whatever form that makes sense) from the Spadina line all the way east. Or stick to the premise of a line on Finch, but reaching well east of Yonge.

It's a noble aspiration to try to drive transit to every part of the city, but the funding reality means Toronto will need to pick and choose. I'm not a Mammo fan, nor a Smarttrack moonie, but there may be good reason to redirect the money, just not where Mammo wants it to go.

- Paul

I believe that (correct me if I'm wrong) FWLRT is expected to have greater usage than a western extension of ECLRT.

 

[gweed123]

I think you mean late 2010. Unless Miller "killed" Transit City - making the delay about a year and a half.

You're correct, my bad. So yes, even worse then, because the delay was well under 2 years, yet the construction completion date delays are 2-3x that.

That's somewhat my feeling as well. Either that, or the plan for both will simply fizzle away altogether, and any allocated funds will instead go to SmartTrack. The irony is that the only construction seen for the SELRT was the grade-separation of the Stouffville line. So in a way, SmrtTrack is already benefiting from Transit City funds.

I think they'd more likely be shifted to the DRL than to SmartTrack, mainly because SmartTrack (GO RER) is already being completely funded by the Province, and is accounted for in the $15 billion. It's the DRL that's likely going to need additional funding, and the ~$2 billion from the Finch West and Sheppard East LRTs would go a fairly long way in building the DRL. If we're shifting LRT money towards subways, might as well shift it towards the one big subway project that actually makes sense.

 

[RyanM12]

Wouldn't it be better to skip the Sheppard lrt for a finch EAST lrt? That way you have a continuous crosstown route from Humber college to morningside. Bring the Scarborough subway one more stop to finch. Finch east is actually one of the busiest bus routes, busier than finch west. Then we can avoid having another stubway.

With Sheppard east and finch west lrt's, you'd have to transfer five times to get from northern Scarborough to northern Etobicoke.

 

[Tuscani01]

Wouldn't it be better to skip the Sheppard lrt for a finch EAST lrt? That way you have a continuous crosstown route from Humber college to morningside. Bring the Scarborough subway one more stop to finch. Finch east is actually one of the busiest bus routes, busier than finch west. Then we can avoid having another stubway.

With Sheppard east and finch west lrt's, you'd have to transfer five times to get from northern Scarborough to northern Etobicoke.

I'd rather see the Finch line swing down to meet at Sheppard-Yonge, and converting the Sheppard subway to LRT. Otherwise, we are stuck with an incomplete stubway.

 

[RyanM12]

I'd rather see the Sheppard subway connected to downsview, it seems like a waste to convert it to lrt. It would be useful for the network, especially if a drl/don mills subway is built. Finch can take care of the crosstown route.

I'm still hoping we'll get a don mills subway up to Sheppard, to parallel the Spadina line. Better yet, up to finch, then across the hydro corridor and up the 404 to Steeles & VP for a terminus. And Markham can bring it to Warden & highway 7 in the far future, if they want.

 

[Canadian Chocho]

I'd rather see the Sheppard subway connected to downsview, it seems like a waste to convert it to lrt. It would be useful for the network, especially if a drl/don mills subway is built. Finch can take care of the crosstown route.

I'm still hoping we'll get a don mills subway up to Sheppard, to parallel the Spadina line. Better yet, up to finch, then across the hydro corridor and up the 404 to Steeles & VP for a terminus. And Markham can bring it to Warden & highway 7 in the far future, if they want.

Perhaps even running it to Keele and Finch to Connect it with the Finch LRT

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The one and only reason for building the Sheppard West Subway is to connect Yonge to Wilson Yard. But even building a new yard on Yonge in York Region is a superior solution.

 

[MrsNesbitt]

Wouldn't it be better to skip the Sheppard lrt for a finch EAST lrt? That way you have a continuous crosstown route from Humber college to morningside. Bring the Scarborough subway one more stop to finch. Finch east is actually one of the busiest bus routes, busier than finch west. Then we can avoid having another stubway.

With Sheppard east and finch west lrt's, you'd have to transfer five times to get from northern Scarborough to northern Etobicoke.

I'd rather see the Finch line swing down to meet at Sheppard-Yonge, and converting the Sheppard subway to LRT. Otherwise, we are stuck with an incomplete stubway.

I've long thought that, If we could go back before the Sheppard subway was built, it would be better simply to use Finch as the northern crosstown route - further north, greater density (excluding the density which has developed between Yonge and Don Mills due to the subway), and Finch continues further west than Sheppard does anyways. This all being said, since there already exists a tunnel along Sheppard, I'm still more of a fan of turning the FWLRT southbound east of the Spadina line and then linking up with the Sheppard tunnel. The Sheppard subway will never be extended, and rightfully so, so rather than keeping it an orphaned stub we could use it as part of a fuller crosstown line.

Further north, outside of Toronto itself, the 407 Transitway will provide an even better northern crosstown solution, whenever that may get built. I've also often wondered if Steeles would be a good candidate for LRT.