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Finch West Line 6 LRT

Absolutely not. We also have a right to be heard and push for what we want. And that's in line with what most of Torontonians want. We wasted money on a system that should have never been built in Toronto, and it's people like me that organized and pushed to kill any consideration of more LRTs on Sheppard and continues to push for no more of these slow overpriced streetcars that do not have place in Toronto that are only wanted by short sighted geezers who are fine with snail like travel times at half the cost of a subway, but not even close to 10% the value of a subway. And quite frankly, the public agrees and the political sentiment is leaning in the same direction. So no, Absolutely Not.
I'm pro subway but the city would never build an entire line to Humber college! If it was a subway I think it was only supposed to go to Jane. Look at the cancelled Eglinton line? it would only go from Cedarvale to black creek.
K I'll take that at face value, that you're apparently pro subway, but you clearly just strawmanned @mikey7767 .

He never said that Line 6 should've been a subway. Line 6 bad =/= Line 6 should've been a subway.

Can we please move on from this persistent logical fallacy to the point where every time anyone makes a post remotely critical of trams in Toronto that they have to make a disclaimer that they don't think Finch West deserved a subway? Just because someone is critical of Line 6 does not mean they think it should've been a subway.
 
Absolutely not. We also have a right to be heard and push for what we want. And that's in line with what most of Torontonians want. We wasted money on a system that should have never been built in Toronto, and it's people like me that organized and pushed to kill any consideration of more LRTs on Sheppard and continues to push for no more of these slow overpriced streetcars that do not have place in Toronto that are only wanted by short sighted geezers who are fine with snail like travel times at half the cost of a subway, but not even close to 10% the value of a subway. And quite frankly, the public agrees and the political sentiment is leaning in the same direction. So no, Absolutely Not.
The cost difference between LRT and Subways in Toronto is 4.7x, Finch LRT per km compared to the Ontario Line per km, The Ontario line is using a lot of elevated sections and and GO right of way so most likely the difference is 5x+ to build a subway instead of an LRT. Finch West costs 3.7Billion as an LRT and would cost around 17.5 Billion as a Subway at the same per km as the Ontario line..
 
The cost difference between LRT and Subways in Toronto is 4.7x, Finch LRT per km compared to the Ontario Line per km, The Ontario line is using a lot of elevated section and and GO right of way so most likely the difference is 5x+ to build a subway instead of an LRT. Finch West costs 3.7Billion as an LRT and would cost around 18.5 Billion as a Subway.

Careful about what's in those numbers, in both cases.

That's not quite an accurate picture.

Though it is certainly accurate to suggest a 100% tunneled project would have cost more money, and indeed it would be a multiple of the LRT figure.
 
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K I'll take that at face value, that you're apparently pro subway, but you clearly just strawmanned @mikey7767 .

He never said that Line 6 should've been a subway. Line 6 bad =/= Line 6 should've been a subway.

Can we please move on from this persistent logical fallacy to the point where every time anyone makes a post remotely critical of trams in Toronto that they have to make a disclaimer that they don't think Finch West deserved a subway? Just because someone is critical of Line 6 does not mean they think it should've been a subway.
Because the 7+ year debate on subways vs lrt's for Scarborough went from a facts based plan to an ideological "haves vs have nots"
If I ask any person I know in Scarborough why is the LRT "bad" they say because we don't want the city to short change us. The experimental and underfunded RT made them feel 2nd class.

I made my disclaimer cause I want don't want people to assume I'm in that group.
 
Absolutely not. We also have a right to be heard and push for what we want. And that's in line with what most of Torontonians want. We wasted money on a system that should have never been built in Toronto, and it's people like me that organized and pushed to kill any consideration of more LRTs on Sheppard and continues to push for no more of these slow overpriced streetcars that do not have place in Toronto that are only wanted by short sighted geezers who are fine with snail like travel times at half the cost of a subway, but not even close to 10% the value of a subway. And quite frankly, the public agrees and the political sentiment is leaning in the same direction. So no, Absolutely Not.

We certainly should push for better than what was delivered.

However, it is important not to conflate different things.

The vehicles/rolling stock here are perfectly capable of being speedy. It is a choice to operate them slowly. You can operate subways at different speeds too, Toronto runs subways in regular rather than high-rate motor operation which would provide more speed. We've also had issues w/extended or delayed door opening/closing times, particularly on Line 1.

Again, choices. Now there are reasons for said choices, its not just whimsy, but that doesn't mean the TTC got it right.

****

In respect of Finch, we need to be clear, a subway was not ever going on this route. Period. So litigating that would be silly. The alternatives were 'Do nothing'; some variant of BRT, or simply a modified version of what was built.

Lets review what is pure 'choice', in other words reversible now, without major cap-x.

1) Schedules

2) Permitted operating speeds mid-stop (between stops) and through intersections.

3) Transit Priority signalling that is more aggressive.

4) Lagging lefts and/or left turn prohibitions at some intersections.

In varying degrees, these could be delivered, in part, as soon as March; while some changes would require longer, perhaps until late this year.

****

Now lets look at major changes that could be made that do require cap-x, but are realistic and feasible.

1) Really this is removing and/or relocating some surface stops, that's pretty much it.

2) We truly should fix that completely unacceptable turning radii in the Humber tunnel, but that would be expensive and profoundly disruptive.

****

I think BRT and 'Do Nothing' are straight forward as alternatives.

IF we were designing this as LRT, from the start, there are different choices we could have made.

1) We could have trenched or elevated over select intersections, depending on method, depth etc. maybe add 150M per intersection.

2) We could have had open-ballast track (this would allow better heating for switches in the winter.)

3) We could have chosen different rolling stock, considered running to the side of the road, rather than the middle, and certainly build a better portal at Humber.

Of the above, only 1 (and the portal issue) would have represented faster travel times in a material way.


****

Subject to different design choices, there is no inherent reason an LRT can't perform as fast as a subway, but to be clear, that would mean far fewer stops, which would likely necessitate a residual local bus service.

****

To sum up, LRT could be fine here, it just isn't because of bad design and operating choices.

Fixing the operations part will make this much better, but not ideal.

The point of any other discussion really ought to be on insuring whatever choices we make in the future we do better than we did here, significantly so.

That may well mean subway in some cases, but will not mean subway in every case.

The problem with McGrath's piece is not that LRT is inherently evil; its that he wrote a throw-away column in which he failed to address the failures on Finch and with the Miller era plans more broadly in an effort to
simply say 'Miller was right' and people who don't like this are wrong.

On that, he's out to lunch.

Finch is not ok, as operated today.

His defense of that was poorly considered.
 
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My bigger fear is subway might still suffer the same speed restriction that is applied to this LRT line. It is clear that Metrolinx will own the subway extensions with TTC just rolling their trains onto ML tracks. At this point, we don't know who will be responsible for track maintenances but it could be part of the P3 contracts. If they damage TTC trains, who will pay for that and they can pretty much put speed restrictions on Scarborough or Yonge North extensions to reduce wear and tear. At this point if ML allows the consortium to save money by restricting how TTC operates the trains, it doesn't even matter what they build, it can be slow.
 
My bigger fear is subway might still suffer the same speed restriction that is applied to this LRT line. It is clear that Metrolinx will own the subway extensions with TTC just rolling their trains onto ML tracks. At this point, we don't know who will be responsible for track maintenances but it could be part of the P3 contracts. If they damage TTC trains, who will pay for that and they can pretty much put speed restrictions on Scarborough or Yonge North extensions to reduce wear and tear. At this point if ML allows the consortium to save money by restricting how TTC operates the trains, it doesn't even matter what they build, it can be slow.

It'll be interesting how the Ontario line is when it finally opens. It's totally new and different technology compared to the other lines, not just an extension of an existing one

I believe Metrolinx can totally screw up a subway too, so everyone here thinking that a line 6 subway would have been so much better than the LRT, I say wait and see
 
Metrolinx CEO, Michael Lindsay recently made comments regarding "teething issues" with the Finch West LRT. His comments focus solely on the issues with track switches in cold temperatures which cause delays and the line to shut down temporarily. Unfortunately, he doesn't address the line's slow operating speeds or discuss ways to speed up the line.

 
We certainly should push for better than what was delivered.

However, it is important not to conflate different things.

The vehicles/rolling stock here are perfectly capable of being speedy. It is a choice to operate them slowly. You can operate subways at different speeds too, Toronto runs subways in regular rather than high-rate motor operation which would provide more speed. We've also had issues w/extended or delayed door opening/closing times, particularly on Line 1.

Again, choices. Now there are reasons for said choices, its not just whimsy, but that doesn't mean the TTC got it right.

****

In respect of Finch, we need to be clear, a subway was not ever going on this route. Period. So litigating that would be silly. The alternatives were 'Do nothing'; some variant of BRT, or simply a modified version of what was built.
Actually, Rob Ford and Georgio Mammoliti suggested subway. Unfortunately, they, or any of the transit "experts" in Toronto could not imagine any type of subway other than 150m long train fully buried subway. The reason - if 150m subway is the only option than on-street LRT will look better.
 
It'll be interesting how the Ontario line is when it finally opens. It's totally new and different technology compared to the other lines, not just an extension of an existing one

I believe Metrolinx can totally screw up a subway too, so everyone here thinking that a line 6 subway would have been so much better than the LRT, I say wait and see
Again this is almost entirely a myth. Who in their right mind would think Line 6, on relatively low density Finch, should've been a subway? I'm not discounting the existence of one or two active members who think a ≤10 km stubway would be more appropriate than a tram, but can we get past this notion that the dozens, if not hundreds of relatively pro-subway contributors in this thread think Line 6 should've been a subway? This is ludicrous and hearing this over and over again is incredibly tiresome.
[They] never said that Line 6 should've been a subway. Line 6 bad =/= Line 6 should've been a subway.
 
Actually, Rob Ford and Georgio Mammoliti suggested subway. Unfortunately, they, or any of the transit "experts" in Toronto could not imagine any type of subway other than 150m long train fully buried subway. The reason - if 150m subway is the only option than on-street LRT will look better.
If we're complaining about the quality of transit planning, it is unbecoming to cite Giorgio Mammoliti as a counterexample.

The mere fact that someone said the word "subways" doesn't make them some oracle of genius on this topic.
 
It'll be interesting how the Ontario line is when it finally opens. It's totally new and different technology compared to the other lines, not just an extension of an existing one

I believe Metrolinx can totally screw up a subway too, so everyone here thinking that a line 6 subway would have been so much better than the LRT, I say wait and see
I have been been following the transit saga in this city since day one. I do not ever recall anyone ever advancing the notion that a subway on that line was ever an option (ie.: not anyone serious anyways). What people did say (like me) is that: the plan of surface street level rail (whether mixed in with traffic or not) with 18 stops in 10 kilometers is a poor service (FOR THE PUBLIC) because its too slow. And, Its no better or worst than the existing bus service. To me that has been obvious from the very second that I first saw or heard of the plans.

Its frustrating how public officials cleverly work the PR by diverting the public attention when there is crisis like like. They obscure the real problems by diverting attention to secondary things like signal prioritization, operational issues etc etc. This is a PR play whose objective is to protect their public image and true objectives of those official and they do it by diverting attention away from the true problem and towards the minor things that can be fixed. The true problem is that a tram service (like this) is a poor service for this kind of area & most areas in Toronto.
 
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The cost difference between LRT and Subways in Toronto is 4.7x, Finch LRT per km compared to the Ontario Line per km, The Ontario line is using a lot of elevated sections and and GO right of way so most likely the difference is 5x+ to build a subway instead of an LRT. Finch West costs 3.7Billion as an LRT and would cost around 17.5 Billion as a Subway at the same per km as the Ontario line..
Their are waaay too many factors to ontario line that push up the cost meaningfully that wouldn't apply to finch and that's before the fact that ontario line is being procured in a post covid world.

Imo this conversation is simply not helpful at all
 
I have been been following the transit saga in this city since day one. I do not ever recall anyone ever advancing the notion that a subway on that line was ever an option (ie.: not anyone serious anyways). What people did say (like me) is that: the plan of surface street level rail (whether mixed in with traffic or not) with 18 stops in 10 kilometers is a poor service (FOR THE PUBLIC) because its too slow. And, Its no better or worst than the existing bus service. To me that has been obvious from the very second that I first saw or heard of the plans.

Its frustrating how public officials cleverly work the PR by diverting the public attention when there is crisis like like. They obscure the real problems by diverting attention to minor things like signal prioritization, operational issues etc etc. This is a PR play whose objective is to protect their public image and true objectives of those official and they do it by diverting attention away from the true problem and towards the minor things that can be fixed. The true problem is that a tram service (like this) is a poor service for this kind of area.
It was talked about going in the hydro corridor and being grade-separated and going to Seneca College. The GO ALRT was even more ambitious.
The pro on-street LRT people controlled the narrative for at least a decade (2007 to 2017) - that was enough time to ensure that we got what we got.
 
Its frustrating how public officials cleverly work the PR to divert the public attention when there is crisis like like. They obscure the real problems by diverting attention to minor things like signal prioritization, operational issues etc etc.
I respectfully disagree.

The line has been built. We have what we have. Stations are not about to be deleted, so the next best thing is to solve those comparatively low hanging fruit issues.

Question of grade separation. Stop spacing. Etc. Are for the next transit project, whether you like it or not.
 

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