Finch West Line 6 LRT

[Rainforest]

I hope Metrolinx is low-balling the speed and travel time estimates for Finch LRT, just to avoid a future disappointment. I have a couple of reasons to think so.

First of all, TTC did speed modeling for Sheppard East LRT about 15 years ago, in the early days of Transit City. At that time, they came up with 27 kph if the average stop spacing is 800 m, or 22-23 kph if the average stop spacing is 400 m.

For Finch West, the average stop spacing is 11 km / 17 stop intervals = 647 m. That's roughly halfway between 400 m and 800 m, thus the speed should be about 25 kph.

Secondly, LRT should be faster than the mixed-traffic bus, because a) LRT has exclusive lanes, and b) Finch LRT has fewer stops than the bus it replaces. The bus average speed in mixed traffic is 17 kph. One should expect the LRT to be somewhat faster.

If one of the latest Metrolinx forecasts is correct ..
11 km in 33 min = 20 kph
11 km in 38 min = 17.4 kph

The former is marginally faster than the bus. The latter isn't faster at all.

I guess we will see in a year or in 18 months when Finch LRT starts running. If it's not faster than bus, then we can forget about any new LRT lines in the inner suburbs, there will be no public appetite for those. LRT has one other advantage: greater capacity, but given the massive cost of LRT construction, the councillors and the riders will opt for just running more buses, and perhaps BRT lanes.

Technically, LRT should be able to run 25-30% faster than the mixed trraffic bus. If the transit operator can't make that happen, time to scrutinize their operational practices.

 

[ssiguy2]

Even forgetting the fact that ML was stupid enough not to build in light controlled U-Turn loops between stations, there is absolutely no reason why any of the trains should be making any stops for red lights. With today's technology they could easily make the system a traffic-light free one by coordinating the trains so that each train, each way meets at the stations at the same time always coordinated with a green light. The ONLY reason this would not be the case is because the TTC has chosen not to inconvenience drivers.

In 2024 when Finch {or in 2056, Eglinton} is open, we will see if Toronto has decided to put drivers or transit users first but unfortunately, I'm quite confident it will be NOT the latter.

 

[junctionist]

The ONLY reason this would not be the case is because the TTC has chosen not to inconvenience drivers.

In 2024 when Finch {or in 2056, Eglinton} is open, we will see if Toronto has decided to put drivers or transit users first but unfortunately, I'm quite confident it will be the latter.

It's not the TTC that has chosen not to inconvenience drivers but rather the Driver Services...err...Transportation Services department. From what I recall, they shot down true signal priority on the on-street parts of the Eglinton LRT on the basis that there would be too much traffic for drivers to deal with.

 

[Rainforest]

Even forgetting the fact that ML was stupid enough not to build in light controlled U-Turn loops between stations, there is absolutely no reason why any of the trains should be making any stops for red lights. With today's technology they could easily make the system a traffic-light free one by coordinating the trains so that each train, each way meets at the stations at the same time always coordinated with a green light. The ONLY reason this would not be the case is because the TTC has chosen not to inconvenience drivers.

In 2024 when Finch {or in 2056, Eglinton} is open, we will see if Toronto has decided to put drivers or transit users first but unfortunately, I'm quite confident it will be the latter.

Mandating a hard stop on all crossing arterials would have a side effect of delaying the bus routes that serve those arterials. So, perhaps that's an overshoot.

However, the modern powerful and inexpensive controller chips should enable some kind of soft priority, that gives green light to the LRV say 80% of the time. When the LRV approaches the intersection, the controller either extends the green and lets the LRV pass during the same phase, or (if the LRV is still too far) shortens the green and shortens the subsequent red, so that the LRV arrives at the beginning of the next green phase.

LRT runs much faster, while the crossing traffic and the crossing bus routes are delayed just a bit.

 

[NoahB]

I hope Metrolinx is low-balling the speed and travel time estimates for Finch LRT, just to avoid a future disappointment. I have a couple of reasons to think so.

First of all, TTC did speed modeling for Sheppard East LRT about 15 years ago, in the early days of Transit City. At that time, they came up with 27 kph if the average stop spacing is 800 m, or 22-23 kph if the average stop spacing is 400 m.

For Finch West, the average stop spacing is 11 km / 17 stop intervals = 647 m. That's roughly halfway between 400 m and 800 m, thus the speed should be about 25 kph.

Secondly, LRT should be faster than the mixed-traffic bus, because a) LRT has exclusive lanes, and b) Finch LRT has fewer stops than the bus it replaces. The bus average speed in mixed traffic is 17 kph. One should expect the LRT to be somewhat faster.

If one of the latest Metrolinx forecasts is correct ..
11 km in 33 min = 20 kph
11 km in 38 min = 17.4 kph

The former is marginally faster than the bus. The latter isn't faster at all.

I guess we will see in a year or in 18 months when Finch LRT starts running. If it's not faster than bus, then we can forget about any new LRT lines in the inner suburbs, there will be no public appetite for those. LRT has one other advantage: greater capacity, but given the massive cost of LRT construction, the councillors and the riders will opt for just running more buses, and perhaps BRT lanes.

Technically, LRT should be able to run 25-30% faster than the mixed trraffic bus. If the transit operator can't make that happen, time to scrutinize their operational practices.

One thing to consider is that the LRT operating like a subway will stop at every station regardless of anyone getting on/off. The bus can skip stops that are not being called by riders.

I don't know to what degree this will affect the LRT compared to the bus, especially in lighter ridership/traffic periods.

 

[Steve X]

I hope Metrolinx is low-balling the speed and travel time estimates for Finch LRT, just to avoid a future disappointment. I have a couple of reasons to think so.

First of all, TTC did speed modeling for Sheppard East LRT about 15 years ago, in the early days of Transit City. At that time, they came up with 27 kph if the average stop spacing is 800 m, or 22-23 kph if the average stop spacing is 400 m.

For Finch West, the average stop spacing is 11 km / 17 stop intervals = 647 m. That's roughly halfway between 400 m and 800 m, thus the speed should be about 25 kph.

Secondly, LRT should be faster than the mixed-traffic bus, because a) LRT has exclusive lanes, and b) Finch LRT has fewer stops than the bus it replaces. The bus average speed in mixed traffic is 17 kph. One should expect the LRT to be somewhat faster.

If one of the latest Metrolinx forecasts is correct ..
11 km in 33 min = 20 kph
11 km in 38 min = 17.4 kph

The former is marginally faster than the bus. The latter isn't faster at all.

I guess we will see in a year or in 18 months when Finch LRT starts running. If it's not faster than bus, then we can forget about any new LRT lines in the inner suburbs, there will be no public appetite for those. LRT has one other advantage: greater capacity, but given the massive cost of LRT construction, the councillors and the riders will opt for just running more buses, and perhaps BRT lanes.

Technically, LRT should be able to run 25-30% faster than the mixed trraffic bus. If the transit operator can't make that happen, time to scrutinize their operational practices.

TTC might run this as a streetcar and thus 38 min isn’t wrong for them.

Seriously trip can be completed in 28 min with proper timing. They just need to hire some international engineers with experience since most of ours are just garbage.

 

[adys123]

I heard way back that the surface section of Line 5 would be stop-on-call, would that not be the same on Line 6? Has that changed?

 

[Rainforest]

One thing to consider is that the LRT operating like a subway will stop at every station regardless of anyone getting on/off. The bus can skip stops that are not being called by riders.

I don't know to what degree this will affect the LRT compared to the bus, especially in lighter ridership/traffic periods.

This could play a role. However, buses rarely can skip major stops like the intersection of two arterials, those are too popular. Buses can skip minor mid-block stops, where LRT won't stop anyway.

 

[Rainforest]

TTC might run this as a streetcar and thus 38 min isn’t wrong for them.

Seriously trip can be completed in 28 min with proper timing. They just need to hire some international engineers with experience since most of ours are just garbage.

I wouldn't blame our engineers though. Rather, look at those who give them directions ..

 

[TRONto]

I hope Metrolinx is low-balling the speed and travel time estimates for Finch LRT, just to avoid a future disappointment. I have a couple of reasons to think so.

First of all, TTC did speed modeling for Sheppard East LRT about 15 years ago, in the early days of Transit City. At that time, they came up with 27 kph if the average stop spacing is 800 m, or 22-23 kph if the average stop spacing is 400 m.

For Finch West, the average stop spacing is 11 km / 17 stop intervals = 647 m. That's roughly halfway between 400 m and 800 m, thus the speed should be about 25 kph.

Secondly, LRT should be faster than the mixed-traffic bus, because a) LRT has exclusive lanes, and b) Finch LRT has fewer stops than the bus it replaces. The bus average speed in mixed traffic is 17 kph. One should expect the LRT to be somewhat faster.

If one of the latest Metrolinx forecasts is correct ..
11 km in 33 min = 20 kph
11 km in 38 min = 17.4 kph

The former is marginally faster than the bus. The latter isn't faster at all.

I guess we will see in a year or in 18 months when Finch LRT starts running. If it's not faster than bus, then we can forget about any new LRT lines in the inner suburbs, there will be no public appetite for those. LRT has one other advantage: greater capacity, but given the massive cost of LRT construction, the councillors and the riders will opt for just running more buses, and perhaps BRT lanes.

Technically, LRT should be able to run 25-30% faster than the mixed trraffic bus. If the transit operator can't make that happen, time to scrutinize their operational practices.

Post in thread 'Metrolinx: Finch West LRT' https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/metrolinx-finch-west-lrt.11783/post-1769342


Metrolinx info says avg speed of 20/21km/h (33/34 minutes) . That info is older, things may have changed.

This line is more about capacity/reliability than speed as previously discussed around the linked post

 

[canucks83]

I hope Metrolinx is low-balling the speed and travel time estimates for Finch LRT, just to avoid a future disappointment. I have a couple of reasons to think so.

First of all, TTC did speed modeling for Sheppard East LRT about 15 years ago, in the early days of Transit City. At that time, they came up with 27 kph if the average stop spacing is 800 m, or 22-23 kph if the average stop spacing is 400 m.

For Finch West, the average stop spacing is 11 km / 17 stop intervals = 647 m. That's roughly halfway between 400 m and 800 m, thus the speed should be about 25 kph.

Secondly, LRT should be faster than the mixed-traffic bus, because a) LRT has exclusive lanes, and b) Finch LRT has fewer stops than the bus it replaces. The bus average speed in mixed traffic is 17 kph. One should expect the LRT to be somewhat faster.

If one of the latest Metrolinx forecasts is correct ..
11 km in 33 min = 20 kph
11 km in 38 min = 17.4 kph

The former is marginally faster than the bus. The latter isn't faster at all.

I guess we will see in a year or in 18 months when Finch LRT starts running. If it's not faster than bus, then we can forget about any new LRT lines in the inner suburbs, there will be no public appetite for those. LRT has one other advantage: greater capacity, but given the massive cost of LRT construction, the councillors and the riders will opt for just running more buses, and perhaps BRT lanes.

Technically, LRT should be able to run 25-30% faster than the mixed trraffic bus. If the transit operator can't make that happen, time to scrutinize their operational practices.

I hope so too! Ms

Post in thread 'Metrolinx: Finch West LRT' https://urbantoronto.ca/forum/threads/metrolinx-finch-west-lrt.11783/post-1769342


Metrolinx info says avg speed of 20/21km/h (33/34 minutes) . That info is older, things may have changed.

This line is more about capacity/reliability than speed as previously discussed around the linked post

So all this investment for something buses can do? If the issue capacity doesn’t means should not be an opportunity not to increase time of travel. Otherwise it’s a failed opportunity. Hopefully the projection are conservative to over delivered.

 

[Reecemartin]

I hope Metrolinx is low-balling the speed and travel time estimates for Finch LRT, just to avoid a future disappointment. I have a couple of reasons to think so.

First of all, TTC did speed modeling for Sheppard East LRT about 15 years ago, in the early days of Transit City. At that time, they came up with 27 kph if the average stop spacing is 800 m, or 22-23 kph if the average stop spacing is 400 m.

For Finch West, the average stop spacing is 11 km / 17 stop intervals = 647 m. That's roughly halfway between 400 m and 800 m, thus the speed should be about 25 kph.

Secondly, LRT should be faster than the mixed-traffic bus, because a) LRT has exclusive lanes, and b) Finch LRT has fewer stops than the bus it replaces. The bus average speed in mixed traffic is 17 kph. One should expect the LRT to be somewhat faster.

If one of the latest Metrolinx forecasts is correct ..
11 km in 33 min = 20 kph
11 km in 38 min = 17.4 kph

The former is marginally faster than the bus. The latter isn't faster at all.

I guess we will see in a year or in 18 months when Finch LRT starts running. If it's not faster than bus, then we can forget about any new LRT lines in the inner suburbs, there will be no public appetite for those. LRT has one other advantage: greater capacity, but given the massive cost of LRT construction, the councillors and the riders will opt for just running more buses, and perhaps BRT lanes.

Technically, LRT should be able to run 25-30% faster than the mixed trraffic bus. If the transit operator can't make that happen, time to scrutinize their operational practices.

Whats technically possible and whats possible in practice have always been very different, and I think those skeptical of the "light rail everywhere" stuff have been saying this for a long time. Remember, the Spadina Streetcar also has dedicated lanes and technically also signal priority - it should also probably be much faster.

Worth noting, its TTC operating this line not Metrolinx, so wouldn't be surprised if TTC Streetcar policies make their way over.

 

[max]

Spadina Streetcar also has dedicated lanes and technically also signal priority

I thought Spadina had no TSP as pretty much everywhere the intersections are timing controlled Spadina crosses an E-W streetcar route and in those cases there are challenges with implementing TSP as it would delay the cross street's transit.

I've also seen the streetcar have to wait at semi-actuated intersections like Sussex for a green, so those don't seem like they have any priority either.

 

[drum118]

Whats technically possible and whats possible in practice have always been very different, and I think those skeptical of the "light rail everywhere" stuff have been saying this for a long time. Remember, the Spadina Streetcar also has dedicated lanes and technically also signal priority - it should also probably be much faster.

Worth noting, its TTC operating this line not Metrolinx, so wouldn't be surprised if TTC Streetcar policies make their way over.

Time to fired the person who calls for TTC outdated rules and policies if they show up after the line opens. Since this an ML line, they should be watching how service is handle by TTC and will most likely complain to TTC that they are not operating the line like it should be in the first place.

Time to increase the speed on the ROW by 10km to allow faster travel time since this one can handle a higher speed from day one

 

[turbanplanner]

I decided to drive the whole length of the line in both directions and film it yesterday, the video is still rendering, but here is one of the bumpiest parts. I don’t know how the contractors or the city get away with this!!!

bumpy finch

Watch "bumpy finch" on Streamable.

streamable.com