Finch West Line 6 LRT

[drum118]

Hey now. Toronto doesn't deserve all the blame. Metrolinx provided the province with an Investment Strategy that would have generated $2 billion annually, as directed to by the government under McGuinty. Wynne then ordered a re-examination by a panel chaired by Anne Golden and Paul Bedford, and they provided two additional options. All three proposals involved a hike in taxes, and Wynne didn't have the guts to follow through.

I said back in 2003 when the Province first started talking about transit that they need to get a checkbook out to write a $3 Billion check yearly for the next 20 years. This was to cover what been talked about for the GTA for transit.

By 2006, that check needed to be $4 Billion with as much as $50 Billion going to Toronto.

Today, we are at $8 Billion to cover both the GTA and the area surrounding it with some going to HSR from Kingston to Windsor. This also cover debit cost, on going maintenance, replacing rolling stock and expansion. More area you take in, the cost will continue to grow to service it.

When the first Metrolinx budget was presented to the province, it was $90 Billion and was told it had to be $50 Billion. I was looking at $140 Billion then.

The Investment Strategy that came up for the Big Move call for a number of tools that were push aside by the province and now been look at this time. Both McGuinty and Wynne didn't have the backbone to put these tools into service and we see the out come of not doing it now. Toronto has had some of those tools as well, but no backbone to do it in favour of the car folks.

Both Anne Golden and Paul Bedford as vice chair as well the panel, supported the tools, but it was not their call to enforce them since it was the province and city responsibility to do so.

The idea of a Regional Transit System is great, but Metrolinx has turn out to be a waste of time and money at this time. Then the province has to take some blame for that since they didn't give Metrolinx the power to override transit plans that made no sense, using wrong technology, not having the right people to run Metrolinx from the top down including the BOD, cow bow to them when they interfere in the operation and plan of Metrolinx in the first place.

If a fee of $5 per surface parking was charge daily, it would generate close to $2 Billion year to the point some would disappear as well reduce the overflow of the sewer system, since rain/snow cannot be absorbed by concrete or asphalt in the first place.

 

[crs1026]

Well, even Transit City accepted the premise that there would be two separate lines that didn't meet at Yonge St. It was one of the plan's bigger flaws IMHO (Yes, Transit City wasn't perfect).

If that plan wasn't pushing for a seamless cross-city line, then who else would be?

- Paul

 

[drum118]

Well, even Transit City accepted the premise that there would be two separate lines that didn't meet at Yonge St. It was one of the plan's bigger flaws IMHO (Yes, Transit City wasn't perfect).

If that plan wasn't pushing for a seamless cross-city line, then who else would be?

- Paul

We know it was flaw from day one, but a starting point and keeping cost down. It was a quick plan to get on the table to help in getting money from the province. It and other system wish list would become part of MoveOntario2020 plan.

If Toronto, had sat down and look at a true network that should be built, as well as the cost for it, including a time frame like a lot of the cities have in the US, then the residents would have an idea where the city had to go in putting transit back into the city. This would have cover LRT, BRT and subway lines right cross the city.

One only has to look at Kansas City who open their first line in almost 60 years of scraping it on May 6 that was only 2 miles long and already they are looking at expanding it. The same thing for Cincinnati who doesn't open their line until Sept 1. Milwaukee is already planning an extension and have yet to built their line. Oklahoma has yet to build their system and is planning buying more cars now, as well looking at expansion.

I know of only 2 failures on new lines and both carry less than 5,000 riders a day, with 12-20 minute headway. They are Norfolk Va and Atlanta Ga. Both are talking expansion and its the only thing that will help both systems.

It getting to a point, new lines are coming out every few months for plan, new and existing systems, with some never had streetcars lines in the first place.

Got to start with baby steps before going big feet.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If the DRL goes up Don Mills and joins with the existing Sheppard Subway, the Finch West LRT could be extended east to Don Mills and south to Sheppard to join with and continue on the Sheppard East LRT.

 

[sixrings]

If the DRL goes up Don Mills and joins with the existing Sheppard Subway, the Finch West LRT could be extended east to Don Mills and south to Sheppard to join with and continue on the Sheppard East LRT.

What would happen if you were coming from finch east?

 

[BurlOak]

If the DRL goes up Don Mills and joins with the existing Sheppard Subway, the Finch West LRT could be extended east to Don Mills and south to Sheppard to join with and continue on the Sheppard East LRT.

This would be the best way making the 6 km long Sheppard, a billion dollar asset, worthless.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

This would be the best way making the 6 km long Sheppard, a billion dollar asset, worthless.

Well the Relief Line Long will already greatly reduce Sheppard Subway ridership. We musnt be hamstrung by that line.

 

[Rainforest]

I doubt that extending the Finch line east to Don Mills, and then bringing it down to Sheppard, is a good idea. The main problem is that it will complicate the provisioning of transit service on Finch east of Don Mills.

Instead, I'd like to see the Finch LRT line extended much further east, either to the SSE terminus or to Malvern. That is relatively affordable, and can be done in the medium term, something like 15-20 years. A continuos LRT line would substantially improve the service along both Finch West and Finch East.

It will not be a great Crosstown line; a bit too slow for long trips. But, since it matches the existing bus service, and does not gerrymander it, there will be no group of riders who are worse off once the LRT opens.

Regarding the Sheppard subway, it will remain an odd duck for the time being. It is still somewhat useful as it will take care of the very densely populated stretch of Sheppard East (perhaps not dense enough to require its own subway, but still too dense to be efficiently serviced by buses). In the long term, like 20 - 30 years, perhaps the right conditions will arise to extend the Sheppard subway (more demand for long east-west trips).

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Much better for the Relief Line to extend north to Finch to meet with the LRT than for the LRT to go down to Sheppard.

Sheppard subway ridership loss is not going to be network ridership loss. This isn't as big of a problem from a transit planning perspective, just merely a political optics one.

 

[georgevicbell]

Just wondering if someone should change the title to RFP instead of RFQ since the RFP was released to the Q'd companies in January.

 

[superman]

Some quick math shows some clear concerns for the Transit City LRTs. Seems like the plans are not clear as to if this is a local tram or true rapid transit. If Toronto wants to implement LRT and have citizens signed off on it as a real subway replacement, I really think they need to look at adjusting stop spacing / options to elevate parts of the line / transit prority.

=====
LA Gold Line 1.8 km per stop with parts elevated
Calgary C train 1.3 km per stop
LA Expo Line 1.3 km per stop with parts elevated
Waterloo LRT 1.2 km per stop
Ottawa LRT 1.0 km per stop with parts underground
Mississauga LRT 1.0 km per stop
-----
Finch LRT 0.6 km per stop with no grade separation
Sheppard LRT 0.5 km per stop with no grade separation
=====

LRTs need to be successful so we don't end up with a 6km subway in the future because citizens don't think there's another option than subway to get fast transit. (For context, I'm pro Scarborough LRT [since it truly is a RT], and I think Sheppard/Finch/Egliton East needs to be grade separated (including elevated), but if not, things need to be done to speed it up... Or we accept its a local service).

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Very much agreed. The stop spacing needs to be seriously looked at.

 

[TransitBart]

Very much agreed. The stop spacing needs to be seriously looked at.

Interesting. The city's own Eglinton Crosstown West and East extensions clearly are evaluating this issue.

Metrolinx on the other hand will have shovels in the ground next year with nary a peep. Personally, for ECLRTW, six stops sounds dopey - we'll leave 1000s on the curb and 14 sounds like a milk run on a local bus. To Superman's point, the Goldilocks point may be somewhere in between. I think 1000m is a good distance. If you live 500m, or halfway between a stop, you are 5 to 6 minutes average walk time from a stop.

 

[Steve X]

Very much agreed. The stop spacing needs to be seriously looked at.

When the transit city lines were designed, they wanted local development and maximize local travel. Everyone seems to want to speed it up, remove local access and create a faster link to the downtown core like that's the only place people would go.

Interesting. The city's own Eglinton Crosstown West and East extensions clearly are evaluating this issue.

Metrolinx on the other hand will have shovels in the ground next year with nary a peep. Personally, for ECLRTW, six stops sounds dopey - we'll leave 1000s on the curb and 14 sounds like a milk run on a local bus. To Superman's point, the Goldilocks point may be somewhere in between. I think 1000m is a good distance. If you live 500m, or halfway between a stop, you are 5 to 6 minutes average walk time from a stop.

No problem, I can walk 1 or 2 km to a station. Grandma and Grandpa can't. Also people don't live by the stop especially in the burbs. Most people are already walking 400-600m to a bus stop. Now you're suggesting them to walk another 500m. Good luck trying to get them to use transit and an awesome way to get ridership to drop. TTC would need to run a parallel bus service of stops are 1000m apart as that's not consider accessible to everyone.

I really don't believe in turning the LRT's into subway like links. GO is better off building a strong RER network that connects easily with the LRTs. If people need to get to places faster, just take the LRT to the GO station. LRT+subway to downtown is already takes too much time to get from the edge of the city to downtown. Plus unless the LRTs are grade separated, placing stops 1000m apart won't help that much.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

When the transit city lines were designed, they wanted local development and maximize local travel. Everyone seems to want to speed it up, remove local access and create a faster link to the downtown core like that's the only place people would go.

I know. And in most cases, the majority of trips are more local in nature.