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Finch West Line 6 LRT

Gosh I hate the Finch bus so much. The crowding is ridiculous. At Kipling & Finch I counted more than 20 people waiting for the bus, and that's just one stop. This LRT is going to provide much needed capacity.
 
BurlOak said:
15 seconds means that it won't even stop, just slow down a bit for passengers to jump on and off.
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Thats what old streetcars did for the ones that had a corner step with...you often jumped on and off while it was moving.
TheTigerMaster said:
Gosh I hate the Finch bus so much. The crowding is ridiculous. At Kipling & Finch I counted more than 20 people waiting for the bus, and that's just one stop. This LRT is going to provide much needed capacity.
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Will the Finch route use consists of 2 or 3 LRVs?
 
Burnt creek said:
Thanks. What your both basically saying and confirming is that is the critics of these projects have a point. Average speeds of 22-23, thats really slow. And, when you add stops at traffic lights, you have a very slow commute with many torcherous stops. Anyone who has every used a city bus, will tell you the most frustrating thing about buses is how slow they are at getting from point A to point B and that the frequent stops have an adverse psychological impact on you. That, and overcrowding is what sets you in bad frame of mind. Other than the overcrowing factor, this Finch line project will ultimately deliver the same kind of service as busses did.

This is why i have never believed that, at grade LRT or streetcar service will ever do anything to improve property values. Property values are higher near the subways lines because you can get downtown faster and get you to work or school faster.
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No, that's already accounted for. 22-23 is the average speed across the entire route.

Of course, this number is highly incompatible with the general automotive mindset because people incorrectly tend to think that their average speeds is, say, 50 km/hr because that's what it's signed, but usually fail to take into account red lights, traffic, etc. More likely, they don't even think about it, and 22 km/hr just sounds really low compared to the posted speeds on their routes, etc. (At least that's my experience when I knew nothing about non-car transportation)

It would be good to have comparable numbers for all modes, which I think has surfaced before, though not sure it includes travel time by automobile.

Even then, it would be an even better indicator to look at the number of people you can move at that speed in each mode, because if you're trying to move a high number of people at LRT speeds in cars, you'd need to have way too many lanes, or complete grade separation (and probably still many lanes).
 
Edward said:
Want controversy? Stop it at Finch West and throw the money towards extending the Sheppard subway to Downsview.
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That would make the most sense. The Sheppard Line connection to Downsview is enivitable so running the Finch LRT east of Finch West will be a waste.
 
44 North said:
Definitely think both sides in this argument are valid, and both have their pros and cons. Grade-separating the entire route provides higher speeds, higher capacity, more reliability; but costs significantly more and offers less local service. Tram-style offers more local service and costs considerably less; but has slower speeds, less reliability, and lower capacity. As for development, both have their benefits (one being higher-density but more nodal around stations, the other being more low/midrise stretched along the arterial)...both great, with the latter being a bit more realistic IMO.

This is why I think an Eglinton Crosstown-style premetro/stadtbahn solution can work in this instance. We get tram-style in the outer ends, but grade-separate the central portion. I also think over the decades we should do the same with our legacy streetcar system (501, 504, 505, 506), and attempt the same for waterfront transit. Nothing as exorbitantly costly like the Crosstown (with a whopping 10km of deep bore tunnel, and some very costly stations that no doubt will remain underused for centuries). Rather a few km of tunnel, cut/cover, or trenched.

Already posted this map in this thread, but since BurlOak brought up the Hydro Corridor I thought it'd be fitting to post again. I think it's a fantasy map that's worth pursuing. We get the best of both types of transit, grade-separation can be done affordably, and we fix the Sheppard Stub once and for all (by converting it for LRVs). The only change to the SELRT and FWLRT would be to use high-floor LRVs (and stops) in place of the low-floor Flexity Freedom.

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Makes more sense to end the Finch LRT at Finch West and extend the Sheppard Subway to Downsview.
 
Steve X said:
Why not head down Bathurst instead of going beside all the buildings? It will generate more demand than having the richer neighbour complain about the construction.
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Why not forget the part east of Finch West and connect the Sheppard Line to Downsview?
 
Akiva said:
Why not forget the part east of Finch West and connect the Sheppard Line to Downsview?
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It's a simple matter of cost. Routing the Finch LRT to Sheppard and Yonge rather than to Finch and Yonge makes incredible sense. A transfer at Sheppard is unfortunate but it's what we are stuck with given that Sheppard is already a subway. We have to acknowledge that given other priorities, eg the need to get on with DRL Long, at some point the money will all be spoken for and funding subway instead of LRT just isn't on.

There has been lots of debate here about the merits of converting the Sheppard subway to LRT so the ride can be seamless. Not all like that idea. I won't recycle through that, you can read it all in the Sheppard thread.

- Paul
 
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crs1026 said:
It's a simple matter of cost. Routing the Finch LRT to Sheppard and Yonge rather than to Finch and Yonge makes incredible sense. A transfer at Sheppard is unfortunate but it's what we are stuck with given that Sheppard is already a subway. We have to acknowledge that given other priorities, eg the need to get on with DRL Long, at some point the money will all be spoken for and funding subway instead of LRT just isn't on.

There has been lots of debate here about the merits of converting the Sheppard subway to LRT so the ride can be seamless. Not all like that idea. I won't recycle through that, you can read it all in the Sheppard thread.

- Paul
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We will agree to disagree.

Don't support the idea of taking the Finch line down to Sheppard even if the current subway is converted to LRT. Finch East should see LRT like the West as it sees the same or more so more riders than the west. More important, the east has more buses on it than west by almost 2:1

Both Finch and Sheppard should be end to end LRT and that what I saw for the first time back in 2006, just like Eglinton when I did a master plan for the GTA. Current Sheppard white elephant needs to be converted to LRT.

I agree that the DRL is long over due and needs to be number 1 project to be built all the way to Steeles. As for being a subway, don't support that idea anymore, but a eMU line, interlining with the RH Line and using double deck trains up to 10 cars long, with 3 tracks.

If the centre platform is used for the Sheppard Line, it will take some load off the current way to get to/from line 1, but it could become a bottleneck as well.
 
TheTigerMaster said:
Why? What useful information does top speed provide?
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To compare with the posted speed limit signs.

We ignore the fact that the "average speed" on the Gardiner is about 22 km/h, because the signage says "55 km/h". The average speed on Line 2 (Bloor-Danforth) is about 30 km/h, but most don't know or ask what the "posted" speed limit on Line 2 is.
 
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drum118 said:
Don't support the idea of taking the Finch line down to Sheppard even if the current subway is converted to LRT. Finch East should see LRT like the West as it sees the same or more so more riders than the west. More important, the east has more buses on it than west by almost 2:1

Both Finch and Sheppard should be end to end LRT and that what I saw for the first time back in 2006, just like Eglinton when I did a master plan for the GTA. Current Sheppard white elephant needs to be converted to LRT.
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I don't disagree with this, I just don't believe the money will ever be there to achieve it.

In our lifetimes Toronto will only afford one east-west rail transit across the top of the city. The east and west portions have to meet, to provide a direct route that crosses Yonge Street.

In the past, the ridership may have mainly wanted to get to Yonge Street to head downtown. However, if the DRL does get built, some of that ridership will divert to DRL. That will take buses off Finch East. Just as we are doing on Eglinton with Crosstown, we need to connect across the top of the city. So Finch and Sheppard have to connect.

- Paul
 
crs1026 said:
I don't disagree with this, I just don't believe the money will ever be there to achieve it.

In our lifetimes Toronto will only afford one east-west rail transit across the top of the city. The east and west portions have to meet, to provide a direct route that crosses Yonge Street.

In the past, the ridership may have mainly wanted to get to Yonge Street to head downtown. However, if the DRL does get built, some of that ridership will divert to DRL. That will take buses off Finch East. Just as we are doing on Eglinton with Crosstown, we need to connect across the top of the city. So Finch and Sheppard have to connect.

- Paul
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If Toronto took it head out of its ass and smell the air as well having new tools in place by 2018 to fund transit, there is no reason why funds can't be found to built the full Finch LRT line from end to end. Its not going to cost 50% of the cost to build the Eglinton Line, depending when construction takes place.

I still say like planners in the US have said, the cost to covert the Sheppard to LRT is too high. Even if you convert the subway to LRT, going west can be push back, but effort should be made to get it over to Downsview sooner than later. In fact, I am will to go high platforms for all stops that will reduce the cost to convert the existing platforms if it is cheaper to built the high platform for the rest of the stops. You increase carrying capacity by doing so.

As I have said in the past, unless the DRL get up to Finch with Steeles being the main goal, the DRL is not going to help the Yonge line at all. Getting the Yonge line up to Steels is more important than the SRT subway. It will deal with the bus mess that exist today as well reduce all systems operation cost, running to/from Finch on Yonge St. As well, it will reduce the number of buses needed for those routes.

If cities in the US can build new system that haven't existed for 50 years or so, as well expanding them with new tools to do so, no reason we can't.

If done right from the beginning, no need for a Finch-Sheppard line at. Doing is a poor man route that will cause more problems than enough. What happens to that section of rail going to Sheppard and the Finch Station??
 
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drum118 said:
If Toronto took it head out of its ass and smell the air as well having new tools in place by 2018 to fund transit, there is no reason why funds can't be found to built the full Finch LRT line from end to end.
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Hey now. Toronto doesn't deserve all the blame. Metrolinx provided the province with an Investment Strategy that would have generated $2 billion annually, as directed to by the government under McGuinty. Wynne then ordered a re-examination by a panel chaired by Anne Golden and Paul Bedford, and they provided two additional options. All three proposals involved a hike in taxes, and Wynne didn't have the guts to follow through.
 
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