Fate of the SRT

[Dan416]

I figured I might as well post this in this thread as well

What the subway map in the east end SHOULD look like.

Basically replace the entire SRT with one subway stop at Lawrence East and an interchange at STC with the Sheppard line (or run it straight through to NYC or Downsview).

 

[kEiThZ]

I figured I might as well post this in this thread as well

What the subway map in the east end SHOULD look like.

Basically replace the entire SRT with one subway stop at Lawrence East and an interchange at STC with the Sheppard line (or run it straight through to NYC or Downsview).

Nice map...but would we really put stops on the secondary streets?

 

[Dan416]

Nice map...but would we really put stops on the secondary streets?

I just chose streets that didn't duplicated Danforth line stop names.

 

[jamesbow]

It's often better to go with neighbourhoods (as the University subway did) or intersections (as we seem to be starting to do). Failing that, local landmarks or parks come into play. As I said on another thread, I updated my fantasy map based on suggestions here, and to take out the "North" and "South" station references.

So for stations:

Victoria Park North = "O'Sullivan's Corners"
Warden North = "L'Amoreaux"
Kennedy North = "Agincourt"

...James

 

[nfitz]

Generally I agree - but am I the only one who can't remember whether St. Patrick or St. Andrew is King or Dundas? Though I only use either of these stations once or twice a year ... but it never sticks in my mind.

 

[jamesbow]

I think that's why it's important to take the University subway approach to some of these stations, with the cross street name placed in smaller text beneath the station name.

 

[nfitz]

Yes indeed - useful when you are on the platform!

Or we could just use the approach of re-using station names. If we have a Bathurst station on the Danforth Line ... then we just call the same road Bathurst on the Queen, Eglinton, and Sheppard lines.

(can you imagine - Bathurst South. Bathurst North ... and Bathurst Norther? If they ever build an east-west line in York than can call it Bathurst Northest! )

 

[EnviroTO]

I wouldn't rule out Metrolinx getting involved in the Kennedy to Scarborough Centre analysis. Two of the Metrolinx priorities are ensuring a Pearson to Scarborough Centre link in the Finch-Sheppard corridor and the Durham Region BRT which would terminate at Scarborough Centre. As long as Metrolinx sticks to the 'hubs' and 'places to grow' strategy of transit planning it will make sense to have one major hub at North York, one major hub in Scarborough, and transferless connections between the Scarborough hub and North York, Scarborough hub and Yonge at Eglinton or Bloor, Scarborough and Markham Centre, and Scarborough and Pickering. The Transit City plan doesn't follow the 'places to grow' or hub strategy at all. It puts a hub at Kennedy, Malvern, and Fairview Mall which are not 'centres' and totally misses putting a hub at Scarborough Centre. I hope the Durham BRT plan proceeds quickly and dumps passengers at Scarborough Centre so the TTC is forced to deal with it in a reasonable way.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wouldn't rule out Metrolinx getting involved in the Kennedy to Scarborough Centre analysis. Two of the Metrolinx priorities are ensuring a Pearson to Scarborough Centre link in the Finch-Sheppard corridor and the Durham Region BRT which would terminate at Scarborough Centre. As long as Metrolinx sticks to the 'hubs' and 'places to grow' strategy of transit planning it will make sense to have one major hub at North York, one major hub in Scarborough, and transferless connections between the Scarborough hub and North York, Scarborough hub and Yonge & Eglinton, Scarborough and Markham Centre, Scarborough and Pickering, and Scarbrough and downtown. The Transit City plan doesn't follow the 'places to grow' or hub strategy at all. It puts a hub at Kennedy, Malvern, and Fairview Mall which are not 'centres' and totally misses putting a hub at Scarborough Centre. I hope the Durham BRT plan proceeds quickly and dumps passengers at Scarborough Centre so the TTC is forced to deal with it in a reasonable way.

Sadly the SRT Replacement BCA did not even study the option of a subway extension + LRT/BRT to Malvern. As they haven't studied it, I highly doubt they are pushing it.....

 

[EnviroTO]

Sadly the SRT Replacement BCA did not even study the option of a subway extension + LRT/BRT to Malvern. As they haven't studied it, I highly doubt they are pushing it.....

But the BCA was TTC / City Council centric and didn't consider GTA transit planning as a whole. Did the BCA consider the impacts of a Durham BRT offloading at Scarborough Centre? Did it consider the Metrolinx McCowan BRT link between Markham Centre and Scarborough Center? Did it consider where to best locate transit hubs in the city (i.e. Urban Growth Centres) and how this plan fits into that vision? I suspect that the BCA only looked at the SRT as a single route in isolation of others, put no relevance on hub locations, and looked at growth trends largely based on the current and planned transit system which is cumbersome to use.

It seems quite obvious to me that most BCA and EA studies run by the city seek out to validate an already made decision, not to find the best solution. If Metrolinx is given some teeth and controls the purse strings things could get fixed, otherwise a trip from York U to U of T Scarborough will end up a transfer at Finch West, a transfer at Finch, a transfer at Sheppard, a transfer at Don Mills, and a transfer at Scarborough Centre rather than a transfer at Downsview and a transfer at Scarborough Centre.

A good transit system would have one hub in each Urban Growth Centre identified in the Places to Grow document and direct transfer-free routes between neighboring Growth Centres. Scarborough Centre is one of the Growth Centres and its nearest neighbours are Yonge & Eglinton, North York, Markham Centre, and Pickering Centre. Transit City is at odds with the provincial vision so the question becomes... is the province going to do anything about it or will it allow Toronto to spend money on miscellaneous routes which do not come together to form a cohesive system supportive of Metrolinx and Places to Grow goals.

http://www.mei.gov.on.ca/english/pdf/infrastructure/growthplan_ggh.pdf

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Many of us would agree that the BCA was flawed. Depending on which document you use Metrolinx considers the required capacity to be somewhere between 6800 - 1000 which apparently means LRT is adequate.

I too agree, that this might be a tad low. And as Scarberian pointed out earlier, just because riderhsip might be slightly below the threshold does not mean we should not build extensions; few systems have ridership well above their thresholds at the their terminus. Yet we insist on doing just that here. It's too bad.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

But the BCA was TTC / City Council centric and didn't consider GTA transit planning as a whole. Did the BCA consider the impacts of a Durham BRT offloading at Scarborough Centre? Did it consider the Metrolinx McCowan BRT link between Markham Centre and Scarborough Center? Did it consider where to best locate transit hubs in the city (i.e. Urban Growth Centres) and how this plan fits into that vision? I suspect that the BCA only looked at the SRT as a single route in isolation of others, put no relevance on hub locations, and looked at growth trends largely based on the current and planned transit system which is cumbersome to use.

It seems quite obvious to me that most BCA and EA studies run by the city seek out to validate an already made decision, not to find the best solution. If Metrolinx is given some teeth and controls the purse strings things could get fixed, otherwise a trip from York U to U of T Scarborough will end up a transfer at Finch West, a transfer at Finch, a transfer at Sheppard, a transfer at Don Mills, and a transfer at Scarborough Centre rather than a transfer at Downsview and a transfer at Scarborough Centre.

A good transit system would have one hub in each Urban Growth Centre identified in the Places to Grow document and direct transfer-free routes between neighboring Growth Centres. Scarborough Centre is one of the Growth Centres and its nearest neighbours are Yonge & Eglinton, North York, Markham Centre, and Pickering Centre. Transit City is at odds with the provincial vision so the question becomes... is the province going to do anything about it or will it allow Toronto to spend money on miscellaneous routes which do not come together to form a cohesive system supportive of Metrolinx and Places to Grow goals.

http://www.mei.gov.on.ca/english/pdf/infrastructure/growthplan_ggh.pdf

The city didn't even look at all of Scarborough, let alone outside of Scarborough or where GO buses might run. All they care about is the connection to Malvern, even though less than 20% of the SRT's riders are coming from or going to Malvern - "Malvern" includes Centennial College and everything else NE of STC. More people use the SRT to/from the McCowan and Ellesmere corridors than Malvern, and more along Lawrence use it than Malvern does. A subway extension would help *all* of these areas and keep the hub at STC, which is quite clearly the most obvious place for a transit hub in the entire eastern GTA. It's the only terminus point for the Danforth line that makes any sense, the only place where transferring from the subway to other modes of transit makes any sense. STC is also the largest trip generator in Scarborough, so if people from any point in Scarborough need a one-seat ride anywhere, it's to STC and/or downtown.

A subway extension does not preempt the web of streetcars everyone wet dreams about...if there's enough will and money to build like $5 or $10 billion worth of streetcar ROWs, there's more than enough to build a simple and reasonable 5-6km extension. But the subway won't go to Malvern, so the studies are all rigged to conclude there aren't enough benefits compared to keeping/running the RT or LRT a few km northeast. They must be assuming that people along Lawrence East, Ellesmere, McCowan, Brimley, Midland, and at STC itself all don't matter (they only constitute a mere >80% of the SRT's ridership base, after all) or that they'll all find other ways to get around the city, like other LRT lines ($2B of which will intersect in Malvern within walking distance of where the SRT might get extended), or GO (which is also planned to run to Malvern within walking distance of said SRT extension). Hypocrisy much?

Also silly is how Ellesmere and Midland are alternatingly villified as useless and defended as indispensible...people state the former when they try to discredit the extension's ridership potential and then they state the latter when they try to discredit the possibility of anything other than the status quo (even though running a subway extension up the SRT/Midland corridor is actually a good option).

 

[EnviroTO]

The biggest sham is how the city claims to understand the relationship between land use planning and transit but then when it came up with Transit City it threw out the official plan.

Official Plan Land Use: http://www.toronto.ca/planning/official_plan/pdf_chapter1-5/2_urb_str_aug2007.pdf

Scarborough Centre is the designated growth area. Where does Transit City and the SRT study put the biggest hubs? Malvern and Kennedy Station. Malvern is not a growth centre, nor an employment area, nor an intensified avenue. Kennedy is an intensified avenue but not a growth centre.

 

[EnviroTO]

The attached has black dots representing places to grow centres (plus the airport) and black lines representing the current subway system. In addition I have placed lines in green follow the "intensification of the avenues" corridors as much as possible to connect those dots.

Based on the results it seems that:
a) the Jane LRT should end at Dundas West station.
b) the St.Clair LRT should be extended to Kipling.
c) the Finch West LRT should find its way to Sheppard station.
d) the Sheppard East LRT should not go beyond McCowan but rather turn south into Scarborough Centre.
e) an LRT on Meadowvale makes no sense since the Durham BRT/LRT corridor passes U of T Scarborough (the largest trip generator on the route) and Kingston Road is better served as an extension of the Eglinton or Waterfront East LRTs.
f) Extending the SRT beyond Scarborough Centre makes little sense and the future Durham - Scarborough transit corridor can serve as the replacement to that extension serving Centennial College.

 

[kEiThZ]

The worst of this is that Scarborough Centre is the only designated growth centre in the 416 that will not be connected to a subway.