Emirates A380 @ CYYZ on June 1st, 3:45pm

[kEiThZ]

Emirates is accusing Air Canada and Transport Canada of protectionism:

http://hoteliermiddleeast.com/article-4583-emirates_accuses_canada_of_protectionism/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/emirates-air-canada-clash-over-access/article1166252/

Of note, they also want to start flying to Calgary and Vancouver.

What I can't understand is why Air Canada won't compete with Emirates. They could offer daily service to Dubai and connections with other Star Alliance partners there and do quiet well. Instead, their refusal to service Dubai is virtually driving customers to Emirates' doorstep.

 

[unimaginative2]

I completely agree. Like I said, a huge number of people are flying through Frankfurt for the Aeroplan points. There's no reason why they couldn't make a go of a Dubai flight if they can make a go of a Bogota flight.

 

[yyzhyd]

Fair competition would be if AC was allowed by UAE/EK to fly Canada-Dubai-South Asia with passengers going from Canada to South Asia.
Not a chance that UAE will allow this; yet that is exactly what Emirates is doing. No complaints about unfair competition here?

In fact UAE has been given the opportunity in 2008 as part of bilateral renegotiations to fly UNLIMITED flights between UAE-Canada for passengers whose origin is Canada and destination is UAE and vice versa.
UAE/EK/EY said no way, this is very revealing because despite all the crap about tourism & business to Dubai etc. there just isn't enough of a market which is why AC doesn't operate the route.
The EK/EY business plan is to capture the TRANSIT passengers through Dubai. Nothing wrong with that plan... however Canada has the full (and justifiable) right to say no as it's not in Canada's interest to bend over every time Tim Clark writes an article in the NP or G&M.
As a Canadian I expect...no, DEMAND that Canadian agencies look out for the Canadian interests first and foremost.

Don't get me wrong I like Emirates and I have flown with them quite a few times and am currently a Skywards Gold Member as well as an Aeroplan Elite Member.

 

[kEiThZ]

Fair competition would be if AC was allowed by UAE/EK to fly Canada-Dubai-South Asia with passengers going from Canada to South Asia.

That's exactly the point of Star Alliance...that onward travel from a transit point could be undertaken by the partner airline. Air Canada could work with Air India, Thai, Singapore, etc to capture the same traffic that Emirates would fly through Dubai from Canada. Emirates is really only competing with Air Canada from Canada to Dubai. It's the Star Alliance partners who compete with Emirates for the onward connections from Europe to Asia. Even today, it's not like Air Canada flies to Mumbai or Bangalore or Singapore or Bangkok.

Their resistance to competition tells me that Air Canada along with its Star Alliance partners either are not willing or are unable to compete with Emirates on such routings and are simply hoping to make the problem go away by bellyaching to Transport Canada.

 

[yyzhyd]

That's exactly the point of Star Alliance...that onward travel from a transit point could be undertaken by the partner airline. Air Canada could work with Air India, Thai, Singapore, etc to capture the same traffic that Emirates would fly through Dubai from Canada. Emirates is really only competing with Air Canada from Canada to Dubai. It's the Star Alliance partners who compete with Emirates for the onward connections from Europe to Asia. Even today, it's not like Air Canada flies to Mumbai or Bangalore or Singapore or Bangkok.

Their resistance to competition tells me that Air Canada along with its Star Alliance partners either are not willing or are unable to compete with Emirates on such routings and are simply hoping to make the problem go away by bellyaching to Transport Canada.

Couple of points... yes Star Alliance in theory could do what you're saying.
But what about:
Revenue issues?
Consistency of service levels?
Flight schedule coordination/slots?

Remember just because an airline puts a codeshare on a partner's flight doesn't necessarily mean they are sharing revenue. Whereas EK is keeping all the revenue, by operating the route end to end.
While your theory seems straight forward, it's not a simple solution. There's tons of grey.
Regardless it will be interesting to watch what happens.

 

[kEiThZ]

Couple of points... yes Star Alliance in theory could do what you're saying.
But what about:
Revenue issues?
Consistency of service levels?
Flight schedule coordination/slots?

Remember just because an airline puts a codeshare on a partner's flight doesn't necessarily mean they are sharing revenue. Whereas EK is keeping all the revenue, by operating the route end to end.
While your theory seems straight forward, it's not a simple solution. There's tons of grey.
Regardless it will be interesting to watch what happens.

Star Alliance is designed to allow an individual airline to compete with Emirates. It's meant to allow multiple airlines to compete with Emirates on one routing by allowing each airline to compete on its niche sectors. AC would compete (and collect revenue) on flights to/from Dubai. Air India would collect on flights to India. Together they beat out Emirates. Aside from revenue, Star Alliance does have general rules on service standards and schedule co-ordination (that's why layovers are usually not more than 4-6 hrs these days). Indeed, at one point there was an argument that Star Alliance could be sued for anti-trust issues because it was forming a de facto monopoly. Yet, remarkably the alliance can't seem to compete with one airline: Emirates.

However, much of this will change with the introduction of more Asian partners into Star Alliance. Also the debut of the 787 with its super long range will open up more point-to-point travel making hubs like Dubai less relevant. At this stage, I just wish Air Canada would make a more sincere effort to compete. They have 7 slots to the UAE from the bilat. Why not use them? Even if it's not through Dubai. How about Abu Dhabi instead?

 

[kEiThZ]

Adding to my point about Star Alliance, note the recent efforts to house Star Alliance partners under a common terminal at several hubs:

http://www.staralliance.com/en/travellers/benefits/move_under_one_roof.html

If Star Alliance could negotiate with authorities in Dubai to co-locate Star Alliance partners in one terminal, it could provide major dividends for airlines competing against Emirates.

 

[Blues]

Low labour costs, different labour standards (probably few unions), and a culture that demands a high level of respect and decorum, particularly with the Pacific Rim airlines. And, most likely, owners with more money than brains who can afford to make it the best right from the beginning.

More money than brains? The top airlines in the Pacific Rim are more profitable than the US airlines.

 

[Blues]

Emirates is accusing Air Canada and Transport Canada of protectionism:

http://hoteliermiddleeast.com/article-4583-emirates_accuses_canada_of_protectionism/

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/emirates-air-canada-clash-over-access/article1166252/

Of note, they also want to start flying to Calgary and Vancouver.

What I can't understand is why Air Canada won't compete with Emirates. They could offer daily service to Dubai and connections with other Star Alliance partners there and do quiet well. Instead, their refusal to service Dubai is virtually driving customers to Emirates' doorstep.

One of the complaints that the UAE airlines have against them is low airport fees and taxes at airports like Dubai and government ownership (and we know how deep the pockets run in the Middle East).

 

[kEiThZ]

One of the complaints that the UAE airlines have against them is low airport fees and taxes at airports like Dubai and government ownership (and we know how deep the pockets run in the Middle East).

Those arguments are trotted around by airlines that can't compete with Emirates. The low landing fees argument is BS. Every airline flying to Dubai gets charged the same fees including Emirates.

The government ownership argument is also spurious. Emirates is a private enterprise, wholly owned by the Sheikh of Dubai. It is not owned by government of Dubai as asserted by many. And I highly doubt that the Sheikh would keep Emirates in his portfolio if it was losing money year after year. In fact, the Sheikh has on numerous occassions had Emirates open its books to answer allegations about illegal subsidies or about its profitability. Moreover, since private enterprises tend to be better run, one would think that Emirates being 'government owned' would be a disadvantage for Emirates. Finally, many airlines (particularly in Europe and East Asia) while not government owned, are certainly well protected by their governments. Look at this example here of the conflict between Air Canada and Emirates.

The reason Emirates is profitable, is because it maintains the cost structure of a low cost airline, has an all widebody fleet, a young aircraft fleet that undergoes renewal often, and very high aircraft utilization rates. In sum, it is simply far more productive than any of its competitors.

But setting all that aside, its a valid question to ask why Air Canada cannot compete on just three routes with Emirates: Calgary-Dubai, Vancouver-Dubai, Toronto-Dubai. With all the advantages of Star Alliance and Aeroplan, it can't compete on three routes with Emirates?

 

[Blues]

Those arguments are trotted around by airlines that can't compete with Emirates. The low landing fees argument is BS. Every airline flying to Dubai gets charged the same fees including Emirates.

The government ownership argument is also spurious. Emirates is a private enterprise, wholly owned by the Sheikh of Dubai. It is not owned by government of Dubai as asserted by many. And I highly doubt that the Sheikh would keep Emirates in his portfolio if it was losing money year after year. In fact, the Sheikh has on numerous occassions had Emirates open its books to answer allegations about illegal subsidies or about its profitability. Moreover, since private enterprises tend to be better run, one would think that Emirates being 'government owned' would be a disadvantage for Emirates. Finally, many airlines (particularly in Europe and East Asia) while not government owned, are certainly well protected by their governments. Look at this example here of the conflict between Air Canada and Emirates.

The reason Emirates is profitable, is because it maintains the cost structure of a low cost airline, has an all widebody fleet, a young aircraft fleet that undergoes renewal often, and very high aircraft utilization rates. In sum, it is simply far more productive than any of its competitors.

But setting all that aside, its a valid question to ask why Air Canada cannot compete on just three routes with Emirates: Calgary-Dubai, Vancouver-Dubai, Toronto-Dubai. With all the advantages of Star Alliance and Aeroplan, it can't compete on three routes with Emirates?

I do agree with you. I just know those are the arguments that are tossed out.

It would be great if Canada would allow for more open skies agreements. It would benefit Canada and Toronto. If they did allow for an open skies agreement with UAE, and with Emirates Airlines stating they want to go daily in Toronto, would they still use a A380 on the route?

 

[Filip]

I was at the airport dropping a friend off, and while having drinks at the Yorkville Grill - low and behold there's the mighty beast herself taxiing to her gate!

 

[kEiThZ]

It would be great if Canada would allow for more open skies agreements. It would benefit Canada and Toronto. If they did allow for an open skies agreement with UAE, and with Emirates Airlines stating they want to go daily in Toronto, would they still use a A380 on the route?

The obstacle to Open Skies is us actually. The UAE allows any airline from any part of the world to fly to Dubai, even without reciprocity. But if Emirates got more landing slots, it'd be hard to say if they'd sticke with the A380 or downgrade to a 777. It would depend on demand. At this stage of the game I'd downgrade and spread out the load through the week. The current 450 pax three times a week could easily be accomodated on a 777-200LR flying every day, and would still have more seats in total.

 

[allabootmatt]

I was at the airport dropping a friend off, and while having drinks at the Yorkville Grill - low and behold there's the mighty beast herself taxiing to her gate!

Wow, very cool. I bet a lot of first-time TO visitors think that's the downtown skyline, too.

Incidentally I was on a flight from Berlin to London yesterday, and about halfway through the pilot pointed out that a Singapore Airlines A380 was just off our wing--about a kilometre away. It was quite a sight. Like the 747, we will all be inured to this beast eventually, but for now it's nice to feel just a little bit of the wonder that earlier generations did when they got to see such incredible machines in action.

 

[Filip]

Wow, very cool. I bet a lot of first-time TO visitors think that's the downtown skyline, too.

Incidentally I was on a flight from Berlin to London yesterday, and about halfway through the pilot pointed out that a Singapore Airlines A380 was just off our wing--about a kilometre away. It was quite a sight. Like the 747, we will all be inured to this beast eventually, but for now it's nice to feel just a little bit of the wonder that earlier generations did when they got to see such incredible machines in action.

The friend I was dropping off is from Geneva, she thought as well that it was Toronto's skyline even after spending 3 weeks in the city! She couldn't believe a suburb would have a skyline so massive looking.