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Eglinton East LRT | Metrolinx

WislaHD

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I personally feel like that's too much stops for the LRT - the lrt should follow current express service stops along eglinton
This comes up every few pages in this thread, since I think when looked at on a map, these stops look close together and needlessly frequent.

They are actually pretty well spaced apart if you measure the distance between them, within the sweet spot for efficient LRT operations and service coverage. Scarborough is much bigger than most people realize. Cutting a few stops will probably just make service coverage significantly worse without much improvement to operations.
 

ARG1

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This comes up every few pages in this thread, since I think when looked at on a map, these stops look close together and needlessly frequent.

They are actually pretty well spaced apart if you measure the distance between them, within the sweet spot for efficient LRT operations and service coverage. Scarborough is much bigger than most people realize. Cutting a few stops will probably just make service coverage significantly worse without much improvement to operations.
Being larger also means that average commute distances are also longer which means every additional or redundant stop will cause problems. As I said previously, due to the LSE line running parallel to this LRT perhaps the issue is much smaller (assuming we get Fare Integration), but in general there is a massive risk when it comes to having tighter stop spacing especially in suburbs. You can easily get away with 1km long stop spacing in suburbs, we shouldn't be afraid to stretch stop spacing as much as possible in order to shorten commutes and make the line more attractive to use.
 

WislaHD

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Being larger also means that average commute distances are also longer which means every additional or redundant stop will cause problems. As I said previously, due to the LSE line running parallel to this LRT perhaps the issue is much smaller (assuming we get Fare Integration), but in general there is a massive risk when it comes to having tighter stop spacing especially in suburbs. You can easily get away with 1km long stop spacing in suburbs, we shouldn't be afraid to stretch stop spacing as much as possible in order to shorten commutes and make the line more attractive to use.
Yeah I can agree with that... but....

Is this truly the suburbs?

The Eglinton East and Kingston corridors seem pretty dense and main-street oriented already, and the surrounding residential areas are more akin to inner city neighbourhoods in built form and street layout than North Scarborough suburbia. The surrounding context will only be trending in an urban direction with all the infill intensification that would come with an LRT.
 

KhalilHeron

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Being larger also means that average commute distances are also longer which means every additional or redundant stop will cause problems. As I said previously, due to the LSE line running parallel to this LRT perhaps the issue is much smaller (assuming we get Fare Integration), but in general there is a massive risk when it comes to having tighter stop spacing especially in suburbs. You can easily get away with 1km long stop spacing in suburbs, we shouldn't be afraid to stretch stop spacing as much as possible in order to shorten commutes and make the line more attractive to use.
The section along Eglinton is already quite dense, and already almost all the busses are full (sometimes even during covid) along this stretch) and that's with like 5 different routes on the one corridor. Maybe up north, they can cut some of the stops on Sheppard but in the south, the extra stops are needed especially if bus service is significantly cut which is more than likely. 1km stop density makes sense in super sprawling single-family neighbourhoods but the eglinton east-Kingston-Morningside segments all have a significant density from apartments and commercial areas and are all very bus reliant currently. Removing stops would probably make transit less convenient for a lot of people along the route.
 

ARG1

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The section along Eglinton is already quite dense, and already almost all the busses are full (sometimes even during covid) along this stretch) and that's with like 5 different routes on the one corridor. Maybe up north, they can cut some of the stops on Sheppard but in the south, the extra stops are needed especially if bus service is significantly cut which is more than likely. 1km stop density makes sense in super sprawling single-family neighbourhoods but the eglinton east-Kingston-Morningside segments all have a significant density from apartments and commercial areas and are all very bus reliant currently. Removing stops would probably make transit less convenient for a lot of people along the route.

This is the type of density that is expected of a suburban arterial, and this easily justifies 1km stop spacing. Remember, most of the ridership comes from connections, not local density. Most of the traffic on the Eglinton Bus comes from the accumulation of passengers east of this suburban corridor, not the local walk in traffic. Local density actually makes up a small amount of total bus traffic.
 

ARG1

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Yeah I can agree with that... but....

Is this truly the suburbs?

The Eglinton East and Kingston corridors seem pretty dense and main-street oriented already, and the surrounding residential areas are more akin to inner city neighbourhoods in built form and street layout than North Scarborough suburbia. The surrounding context will only be trending in an urban direction with all the infill intensification that would come with an LRT.
Yes this is, this looks just as suburban if not more so than an area like Yonge and 16th Avenue in Richmond Hill, and there they get away with a well used and frequent BRT route that stops once every kilometer.
 

KhalilHeron

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This is the type of density that is expected of a suburban arterial, and this easily justifies 1km stop spacing. Remember, most of the ridership comes from connections, not local density. Most of the traffic on the Eglinton Bus comes from the accumulation of passengers east of this suburban corridor, not the local walk in traffic. Local density actually makes up a small amount of total bus traffic.
There are actually a lot more local transit users I've noticed in the area compared to say the 54 or other suburban arterials in the area. The area has a high share of transit usage, as it's pretty low income, and there is tonnes of foot traffic especially at Danforth (and this is on very non-pedestrian-friendly roads). The google earth pictures you sent are also misleading as they don't show how apartments continue several blocks away from Eglinton in many areas. The two stops along the Eglinton segment with the best argument for removing them are without a doubt Mason and Falmouth. Falmouth I think could go without being to big of an issue, especially if midland is a nice underground station, as it most of the apartments are closer to midland and it really only serves one side of the (mind you quite busy) plaza there
falmouth.png

But mason on the other hand has tonnes of low apartments and a school around it that really rely on the bus stop there now that would inevitably disappear with the lrt coming in. Because of the GO tracks, the next stop to the west is a hassle to get too. I still think there is ground for Mason's removal though I think it would do more bad than good. other than maybe midland for cot reason there isn't really ground for any other stops until west hill to be removed given their important connections

Mason.png
 

ARG1

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There are actually a lot more local transit users I've noticed in the area compared to say the 54 or other suburban arterials in the area. The area has a high share of transit usage, as it's pretty low income, and there is tonnes of foot traffic especially at Danforth (and this is on very non-pedestrian-friendly roads). The google earth pictures you sent are also misleading as they don't show how apartments continue several blocks away from Eglinton in many areas. The two stops along the Eglinton segment with the best argument for removing them are without a doubt Mason and Falmouth. Falmouth I think could go without being to big of an issue, especially if midland is a nice underground station, as it most of the apartments are closer to midland and it really only serves one side of the (mind you quite busy) plaza thereView attachment 316984
But mason on the other hand has tonnes of low apartments and a school around it that really rely on the bus stop there now that would inevitably disappear with the lrt coming in. Because of the GO tracks, the next stop to the west is a hassle to get too. I still think there is ground for Mason's removal though I think it would do more bad than good. other than maybe midland for cot reason there isn't really ground for any other stops until west hill to be removed given their important connections

View attachment 316996
As I've said previously I don't think most of these critiques apply to Eglinton East solely because LSE is there to provide the longer distance travel. If you're travelling from further East, there is going to be a to LSE at both Guildwood and Eglinton so if you're going to downtown Toronto or even East York, you don't really need to deal with short stop spacing, and the problem will only really exist for very specific commutes like travelling to East York. That being said, this doesn't mean there aren't opportunities to cut down on the fat if needed.

I think a major problem with LRT planning that exists in this city is the overreliance on LRT to accomplish everything. In your post you mentioned "rely on the bus stop there now that would inevitably disappear with the lrt coming in", which is the crux of the issue. LRT should not be replacing all bus routes, or at the very least, it should only be replacing the express bus routes. The local bus routes that stop at every single block and neighbourhood street should ideally be still running alongside the LRT. Looking at Mason in particular, the street is about a 7 minute walk away from Markham Road. Most of the developments around Mason are sitting east of Mason so for those living in these blocks, a 7 minute walk is the absolute worst case scenerio. For the apartments west of mason, they're about 2-3 minute walk from the start of the Eglinton GO parking lot. While a Mason station might be helpful, I really don't think it would do more harm than good (again though given the existence of LSE, Mason is probably perfectly fine).
 

KhalilHeron

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As I've said previously I don't think most of these critiques apply to Eglinton East solely because LSE is there to provide the longer distance travel. If you're travelling from further East, there is going to be a to LSE at both Guildwood and Eglinton so if you're going to downtown Toronto or even East York, you don't really need to deal with short stop spacing, and the problem will only really exist for very specific commutes like travelling to East York. That being said, this doesn't mean there aren't opportunities to cut down on the fat if needed.

I think a major problem with LRT planning that exists in this city is the overreliance on LRT to accomplish everything. In your post you mentioned "rely on the bus stop there now that would inevitably disappear with the lrt coming in", which is the crux of the issue. LRT should not be replacing all bus routes, or at the very least, it should only be replacing the express bus routes. The local bus routes that stop at every single block and neighbourhood street should ideally be still running alongside the LRT. Looking at Mason in particular, the street is about a 7 minute walk away from Markham Road. Most of the developments around Mason are sitting east of Mason so for those living in these blocks, a 7 minute walk is the absolute worst case scenerio. For the apartments west of mason, they're about 2-3 minute walk from the start of the Eglinton GO parking lot. While a Mason station might be helpful, I really don't think it would do more harm than good (again though given the existence of LSE, Mason is probably perfectly fine).
I agree median lrts need to be treated more as express busses, with local services still running. The TTC's plan for the new bus network after line 5 opens has no surface busses running along Eglinton between don mills and Kennedy which honestly makes transit less convenient for some people (especially those who aren't able-bodied). If there was any indication that even infrequent local busses would still run along median surface LRTs, they could be planned with a lot higher-stop spacing
 

allengeorge

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Unfortunately I think this is a natural consequence of the funding problems at the TTC. If you're always short of operational funding you're going to make decisions that try to slow or reverse the growth of operational costs. This leads to weird results like:
  • Having lots of extra buses but no drivers.
  • Designing one service type (LRT) do the job of multiple others (LRT + local buses).
  • Using express buses as an excuse to run fewer buses.
  • ...
I think that unless the city stumps up for more funding we're going to continue seeing odd decisions that leave transit riders (and the network) worse off.
 

DSC

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Request for Proposal
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Solicitation
number:
Doc2991705152
Commodity:Professional Services, Engineering Services
Description:Request for Proposals for Eglinton East LRT TPAP and Design Update
This Request for Proposals (RFP) seeks to select a qualified consultant team for the primary purpose of updating and completing relevant technical and environmental study and impact assessment, stakeholder engagement, and other documentation in accordance with Ontario Regulation 231/08: Transit Project and Metrolinx Undertakings (O.Reg. 231/08) in order for the City of Toronto (City) to obtain a Notice to Proceed for the Eglinton East LRT (EELRT) from the Minister of the Environment, Conservation, and Parks (MECP). A secondary purpose is to confirm the EELRT core network and Maintenance & Storage Facility (MSF) up to a consistent functional 10% level of design.
Issue date:June 17, 2021
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Closing date:July 20, 2021
at 12:00 Noon
Notes:Attachments
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NOIP Doc2991705152.pdf (75 Kbytes) - Posted on 06/17/2021 11:42:43 AM
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NOIP Summary Doc2991705152.pdf (126 Kbytes) - Posted on 06/17/2021 11:43:43 AM
Buyer:Onabanjo, Olawunmi
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Phone number:416-397-4806
Email:Olawunmi.Onabanjo@toronto.ca
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Location:City Hall, 19th Floor, West Tower,
Client Division:Transportation Services
 

syn

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I think the stop spacing in Scarborough works well, especially with the new development coming to the corridor.

Between the OL and Line 2, you're never going to be too far from a subway connection.
 

toronto647

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Out of curiosity what is the realistic chance this project actually gets built? especially considering its not on Ford's priority of projects... when would a RFP/RFQ/Financial Close timeline look like and when is the earliest this could be built by? 2035 or earlier or later considering most of it is above ground?
 

rbt

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Out of curiosity what is the realistic chance this project actually gets built? especially considering its not on Ford's priority of projects... when would a RFP/RFQ/Financial Close timeline look like and when is the earliest this could be built by? 2035 or earlier or later considering most of it is above ground?

I think this project effectively died when the price increased to $4.4B and the city said they only had $1B for it. I believe Ford's subway projects used nearly all available federal money.
 
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toronto647

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I think this project effectively died when the price increased to $4.4B and the city said they only had $1B for it. I believe Ford's subway projects used nearly all available federal money.
So basically, this project is dead before it is even proposed? Why go through all this hassle if they know it isn't going to happen?
 

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