Eglinton East LRT | Metrolinx

[BurlOak]

I am having a bit of a hard time following

So this might not be a thing anymore, unless it's all off the road, assuming a route from Don Mills to Kennedy gets built in some form.

This, meaning the EELRT - it will only continue if they find a way of grade-separating the portion from Don Mills (actually Brentcliffe) to Kennedy, and it this happens the EELRT would also be grade-separated.

It will happen. Have to province pay for the subways and use city money to build this is one option.

It, meaning both the grade separated portion from Don Mills to Kennedy and the grade-separated EELRT.? If this is fully grade separated, then what "this" would the City pay for - so maybe I change my assumption that "It" means only the grade separate portion from Don Mills to Kennedy, and then "this" is the on-street EELRT?

I suspect this won't get pas the initial planning stage till at least the next provincial election.

Does this mean grade separated portion from Don Mills to Kennedy, or the on-street EELRT.?

 

[micheal_can]

I am having a bit of a hard time following

This, meaning the EELRT - it will only continue if they find a way of grade-separating the portion from Don Mills (actually Brentcliffe) to Kennedy, and it this happens the EELRT would also be grade-separated.

It, meaning both the grade separated portion from Don Mills to Kennedy and the grade-separated EELRT.? If this is fully grade separated, then what "this" would the City pay for - so maybe I change my assumption that "It" means only the grade separate portion from Don Mills to Kennedy, and then "this" is the on-street EELRT?

Does this mean grade separated portion from Don Mills to Kennedy, or the on-street EELRT.?

I am thinking that the current planned and under construction Eglinton Crosstown will be built without any changes. Beyond that, it will be shelved until after the next provincial election.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

I am having a bit of a hard time following

This, meaning the EELRT - it will only continue if they find a way of grade-separating the portion from Don Mills (actually Brentcliffe) to Kennedy, and it this happens the EELRT would also be grade-separated.

It, meaning both the grade separated portion from Don Mills to Kennedy and the grade-separated EELRT.? If this is fully grade separated, then what "this" would the City pay for - so maybe I change my assumption that "It" means only the grade separate portion from Don Mills to Kennedy, and then "this" is the on-street EELRT?

Does this mean grade separated portion from Don Mills to Kennedy, or the on-street EELRT.?

The EELRT. At least phase 1 to UTSC.

 

[OneCity]

This line is a big question mark. We don't know what happens to the current Crosstown to Kennedy? Will Ford request this extension be fully grade seperated? Will it be downloaded to the City.

I just don't see it as a priority for this Provincial admin and the only way I see it move forward is if the current Crosstown cannot be overturned and the City takes over the bulk of the if the Province takes on subway funding. Anything else will be long delay and the bottom of the que.

As much as a support this line the subways are far more of a priority.

 

[nfitz]

This line will be a big question mark in many ways. We don't know what happens to the current Crosstown to Kennedy? Will Ford request this extension be fully grade seperated?

Way too late now. We all know that Doug Ford's level of stupidity is unmatched in the history of provincial premiers, but even I don't think he's that stupid!

Not sure how you'd download to the city; the PC's promise (which is likely worth very little given their leaders's history of breaking promises) was to upload the TTC rapid transit lines. Not download Metrolinx rapid transit lines!

 

[OneCity]

Way too late now. We all know that Doug Ford's level of stupidity is unmatched in the history of provincial premiers, but even I don't think he's that stupid!

Not sure how you'd download to the city; the PC's promise (which is likely worth very little given their leaders's history of breaking promises) was to upload the TTC rapid transit lines. Not download Metrolinx rapid transit lines!

They Province can upload the subways as they have stated is their intention. All other local transit from the Waterfront to EELRT could be delegated back to the City to tax (SSE levy) and minor help from upper levels.

These lines may not a priority of the Province and they dont need to be but they could be manageable by the City if they see them as priority.
Taking subways out of the City's hands is a blessing for multiple reasons. The only real stupidity was non grade seperated, transfer LRT. But anyway, we've had that debate.

 

[nfitz]

They Province can upload the subways as they intend. All other local transit from the Waterfront to EELRT could be delegated back to the City to tax (SSE levy).

You seem to be confused. The Waterfront lines may be local transit (and are already 100% city - no need to delegate), but those other Transit City-like LRT lines like Line 5, Line 6, Eglinton East, etc. are rapid transit and are defined as such by Metrolinx at http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/toronto_lrt.aspx where it states that "The Toronto rapid transit projects are part of The Big Move" with the image shown below.

You are still new here, I'd suggest becoming more acquainted with the terminology!

 

[JSF-1]

I wouldn't call the province uploading the Subway a blessing until we know the exact arrangement. An MPP from nowheresville Ontario shouldn't have a a say in how the Subway is operated, and I am hesitant about believing Metrolinx knows what they are doing. They are good at operating regional transit but have shown they know jack sh*t about Local transit. As well this does kind of open the door to privatization unless the Province and the City enter into some sort of agreement (like the Subway cannot be sold without and 2/3rd majority from City Council).

 

[OneCity]

You seem to be confused. The Waterfront lines may be local transit (and area already 100% city - no need to delegate), but those other Transit City-like LRT lines like Line 5, Line 6, Eglinton East, etc. are rapid transit and are defined as such by Metrolinx at http://www.metrolinx.com/en/projectsandprograms/transitexpansionprojects/toronto_lrt.aspx where it states that "The Toronto rapid transit projects are part of The Big Move" with the image shown below.

You are still new here, I'd suggest becoming more acquainted with the terminology!

At first when i read your post I assumed you understood exactly what i said and are choosing to be a smartass. But then again as long as i remember you always seem out of touch on the latest transit discussion and politics so I'll be nice and explain further and maybe i can help you get up to speed a bit


The bottom line is any non grade seperated LRT will not be a priority or supported by the Province. Subways should be uploaded in some manner and then maybe just maybe the City can find the means to fund these LRT lines if they feel they are priority as safely assume they do. No guarantee but its the only way these non grade seperated LRT line will be built anytime soon

 

[nfitz]

The bottom line is any non grade seperated LRT will not be a priority or supported by the Province. Subways should be uploaded in some manner and then maybe just maybe the City can find the means to fund these LRT lines if they feel they are priority as safely assume they do. No guarantee but its the only way these non grade seperated LRT line will be built anytime soon

Line 5 is not completely grade-separated and obviously isn't going anywhere. Whether the province supports this or not in the future is immaterial at this point - construction is well underway, and long-term contracts bind them. And the way the debt is financed makes downloading infeasible.

Whether Line 6 Finch West happens or not doesn't change this. If it happens, it remains with the province for the same contractual and debt issues as Line 5.

Sure, those other future rapid transit lines on Eglinton East, Eglinton West, Jane, etc. may be 100% city owned- which you might not be aware was the city's desire in the first place.

As for uploading Lines 1 through 4 - I expect the province will lose the taste for this, when the financial and fare implications become clear. I really don't think the PCs have thought through all the implications - particularly in terms of how they will finance this, and how it will go down if they assume all the operating costs and maintenance of the Toronto rapid transit lines, while forcing KW and Ottawa (whose lines are grade-separated!) to fund their own. Doug Ford needs to remember he is the Premier of Ontario - not the Premier of Toronto! Spending huge amounts of provincial resources subsidizing the Toronto subway is not going to endear him to his rural base.

While the path forward is not yet clear, I the one thing I think everyone can be sure of, is the province isn't going to be uploading Line 1, Line 2, and Line 4, while simultaneously downloading the subway section of Line 5!

 

[ssiguy2]

Ford is right about one thing............Eglinton should have been a full Metro to begin with. The idea of having a third of it at-grade along a very busy road was incredibly stupid. It makes the line far more unreliable, more expensive to run due to inability to automate, be much slower, have far lower frequency and hence ridership capacity, and will reek havoc on that busy area of Eglinton.

This was Miller's fault with his "LRT or nothing" transit plan. Finch should have been BRT and Eglinton a full subway. Miller wanted to make sure that no new line in Toronto could be automated to keep his union friends happy. Toronto would be far better served over the long run if the Kennedy to DV section takes a couple extra years to build to ensure it is completely grade separated.

 

[BurlOak]

Ford is right about one thing............Eglinton should have been a full Metro to begin with. The idea of having a third of it at-grade along a very busy road was incredibly stupid. It makes the line far more unreliable, more expensive to run due to inability to automate, be much slower, have far lower frequency and hence ridership capacity, and will reek havoc on that busy area of Eglinton.

This was Miller's fault with his "LRT or nothing" transit plan. Finch should have been BRT and Eglinton a full subway. Miller wanted to make sure that no new line in Toronto could be automated to keep his union friends happy. Toronto would be far better served over the long run if the Kennedy to DV section takes a couple extra years to build to ensure it is completely grade separated.

As I said before, aside from fully grade-separating Eglinton to Kennedy being the best long term solution, and something that should have been done from day 1, it also;

1. Helps rebrand the entire project as a PC project. For an investment of $1B to $2B, the entire $10B line will always be remembered as being the line the PC's built.
2. Fulfills his and Rob's long-held desire and 2014 mayoralty campaign to fully grade-separate this line.
3. It returns to the 2011 plan (underground with some elevated sections to save money). This reinforces how the Liberals and City Council has made a mess of transit in the past 7 years. It also dovetails with his belief that City governments need to be restructured.
4. It goes along with his current promise to built grade-separated (i.e. "subway" to the layman) transit.
5. Fits in better with his promise that the Province should own the grade-separated lines and the City own the streetcars.

Ford would be wise to inquire about what the costs would be to grade-separate the line. If the cost is close to or less than $1B, he would likely do it, and maybe pay the entire penalty in this fiscal year so that it can be viewed as a Liberal cost because grade-separating was a Liberal oversight.
If the cost is over $2B, I doubt they would change anything and it would continue as-is.

 

[crs1026]

This was Miller's fault with his "LRT or nothing" transit plan. Finch should have been BRT and Eglinton a full subway. Miller wanted to make sure that no new line in Toronto could be automated to keep his union friends happy. Toronto would be far better served over the long run if the Kennedy to DV section takes a couple extra years to build to ensure it is completely grade separated.

Yeah, Transit City had a very NDPish “everybody gets exactly the same mediocrity” flavour.

But I find it hard to believe that Doug will mess with any element of Crosstown at this point. It predates him, and there are too many shovels in the ground already.... any change order would have a huge gas-plantish cost to it. More likely he will let it get completed but terminate at Kennedy, and just say “it’s not what Scarborough needs, so don’t extend it”. And then attach his name to subway construction instead.

The west end extension will be more interesting, because the Etobicoke Councillors will likely do an end run around Tory (in the belief that they are part of the Nation rather than reporting to Tory) and hit up Doug for a underground line.... but it’s City money and ML is just involved only at the City’s request. There’s a good argument that Doug would be meddling in Tory’s bailiwick if he insists on underground.... forces the City to spend significantly more cash. That one is going to be fun to watch.

- Paul

 

[drum118]

As I said before, aside from fully grade-separating Eglinton to Kennedy being the best long term solution, and something that should have been done from day 1, it also;

1. Helps rebrand the entire project as a PC project. For an investment of $1B to $2B, the entire $10B line will always be remembered as being the line the PC's built.
2. Fulfills his and Rob's long-held desire and 2014 mayoralty campaign to fully grade-separate this line.
3. It returns to the 2011 plan (underground with some elevated sections to save money). This reinforces how the Liberals and City Council has made a mess of transit in the past 7 years. It also dovetails with his belief that City governments need to be restructured.
4. It goes along with his current promise to built grade-separated (i.e. "subway" to the layman) transit.
5. Fits in better with his promise that the Province should own the grade-separated lines and the City own the streetcars.

Ford would be wise to inquire about what the costs would be to grade-separate the line. If the cost is close to or less than $1B, he would likely do it, and maybe pay the entire penalty in this fiscal year so that it can be viewed as a Liberal cost because grade-separating was a Liberal oversight.
If the cost is over $2B, I doubt they would change anything and it would continue as-is.

If you want a full graded separated Eglinton line, which year do you expect it to open now and how much more will it cost????????????????

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

This line is a big question mark. We don't know what happens to the current Crosstown to Kennedy? Will Ford request this extension be fully grade seperated? Will it be downloaded to the City.

I just don't see it as a priority for this Provincial admin and the only way I see it move forward is if the current Crosstown cannot be overturned and the City takes over the bulk of the if the Province takes on subway funding. Anything else will be long delay and the bottom of the que.

As much as a support this line the subways are far more of a priority.

Way too late now. We all know that Doug Ford's level of stupidity is unmatched in the history of provincial premiers, but even I don't think he's that stupid!

Not sure how you'd download to the city; the PC's promise (which is likely worth very little given their leaders's history of breaking promises) was to upload the TTC rapid transit lines. Not download Metrolinx rapid transit lines!

They Province can upload the subways as they have stated is their intention. All other local transit from the Waterfront to EELRT could be delegated back to the City to tax (SSE levy) and minor help from upper levels.

These lines may not a priority of the Province and they dont need to be but they could be manageable by the City if they see them as priority.
Taking subways out of the City's hands is a blessing for multiple reasons. The only real stupidity was non grade seperated, transfer LRT. But anyway, we've had that debate.

At first when i read your post I assumed you understood exactly what i said and are choosing to be a smartass. But then again as long as i remember you always seem out of touch on the latest transit discussion and politics so I'll be nice and explain further and maybe i can help you get up to speed a bit


The bottom line is any non grade seperated LRT will not be a priority or supported by the Province. Subways should be uploaded in some manner and then maybe just maybe the City can find the means to fund these LRT lines if they feel they are priority as safely assume they do. No guarantee but its the only way these non grade seperated LRT line will be built anytime soon

OneCity, you're being a hypocrite. This line is needed for east scarborough, so why would it not be a priority? You're aware that both subways do close to zero for people east of McCowan and especially east of Markham Road. You complain about respect for Scarborough but here you're ignoring UTSC, Port Union, Highland Park and Guildwood just for the sake of Kennedy, Sheppard and McCowan corridors. I expect both subways and this to be priority given that they connect to both mainlines, what about you?