Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

This is an unwarranted assumption. We don't even know the full cost of LRT yet, so how can you say the funding is virtually guaranteed, but for a subway it isn't? That makes virtually zero sense.

Theoretically, anything can remain unfinished due to a shortage of funds. Subway can, LRT can ... and I can run out of coins in my wallet while trying to buy a cup of coffee.

But if we try to estimate the numbers in the Eglinton subway versus LRT case :

LRT: first portion Jane to Don Mills (including the tunnel up to Laird) 2.5 B; Jane to Pearson 0.6 B, Don Mills to Kennedy 0.4 B.

Subway: first portion Jane to Don Mills 3 B; Jane to Pearson 1.8 B, Don Mills to Kennedy 1.2 B.

The numbers are rough of course, and based on comparison with the per km costs of similar projects.

The point is that the each "flank" of the LRT route costs in the range of a local area's improvement. The stakeholders can submit a proposal several times, with little concern for the rest of network, and eventually the funds will be granted.

In contrast, each "flank" of the subway route not only costs much more, but will trigger scrutiny from other parts of the city, and demands to give them some improvements as well. The starts must be aligned very well for the subway line to get finished, unless the whole funding has already been committed before the start of construction.

 

[dowlingm]

the difference between subway and LRT is that Torontonians know what subway looks like.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

the difference between subway and LRT is that Torontonians know what subway looks like.

Also, subways won't stop at traffic lights.

 

[Dan416]

Also, subways won't stop at traffic lights.

Hahahahahahaha

 

[adma]

Hey, that'd be neat. If Bloor/Yonge were reconfigured into an underground grade intersection, lights and all

 

[W. K. Lis]

Also, subways won't stop at traffic lights.

Between Keele and Laird, the Eglinton LRT will be underground (other synonyms: subway, tube) and so will also not stop at traffic lights.

As for the ground level sections, transit priority should control the traffic lights. (Now if only the royal highnesses at the Transportation Department would turn on the transit priority on the Queensway, St. Clair, and Spadina right-of-ways. At the moment the transit priority is OFF, because the 200+ on board the CLRV's and ALRV's may interfere with the single occupant motorists.)

 

[Mustapha]

The only "missing" stations are Blythwood/Lytton (the main problem here is that Eglinton station is south of Eglinton while Lawrence station is north of Lawrence)

Interesting when I read this. I googled 'Blythwood/Lytton station' and nothing came up. I may have my facts wrong but; and someone here older than me may remember more ...

There was to have been a station here. I remember as a kid riding our bikes over and looking down the hole where the air shaft building now sits. They also discovered a fossil prehistoric horse or something during the dig of this shaft. I also remember reading - as a curious 12 year old - that some citizens in the neighbourhood didn't want a station.

If they can stick a station in at Bessararion, Chester and Summerhill it would make sense for Lytton too. And Yonge Blvd. too.

 

[RedRocket191]

(Now if only the royal highnesses at the Transportation Department would turn on the transit priority on the Queensway, St. Clair, and Spadina right-of-ways. At the moment the transit priority is OFF, because the 200+ on board the CLRV's and ALRV's may interfere with the single occupant motorists.)

Forget him, the beef has got to be with council and the mayor's office. They are really the ones in charge, and they seem unwilling to force the issue.

I would expect that kind of behaviour in Caledon, but not in Toronto...

 

[CDL.TO]

How would signal priority on Spadina even work? Signal timing for east-west cross streets is already at the minimum possible without putting pedestrians in danger. You could hold a north-south green for a bit longer if a streetcar is approaching, increasing the probability of a streetcar getting a green light a bit. But even then, that still wouldn't change that the majority of the time a streetcar will arrive at the intersection faced with a red light.

It's clearly impossible to provide a guaranteed green to a streetcar on Spadina, and I'm highly sceptical that it will be possible on Transit City line.

 

[Edward]

How can you possibly have guaranteed funding? If the reincarnation of Mike Harris gets elected premier, he can do what he wants even if that means pulling the plug on a half complete project.

My understanding is the province put its share of the Spadina extension into a non-revocable trust. Meaning the money could only be used for one thing, the extension of the Spadina subway. I suppose a Mike Harris type of government could pull the plug on the project. But they still couldn't access the money so what would the point be?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Between Keele and Laird, the Eglinton LRT will be underground (other synonyms: subway, tube) and so will also not stop at traffic lights.[/I]

Nice try. Pedantic, but nice. The Eglinton LRT will stop at red lights once outside the tunnel.

If they can stick a station in at Bessararion, Chester and Summerhill it would make sense for Lytton too. And Yonge Blvd. too.

Might have made sense to build them during original construction of the line, but it doesn't make as much sense to add them now.

 

[doady]

IMO, subway is not necessary for the Eglinton corridor - an Eglinton LRT will be just fine... BUT effort must be made to make it as fast as possible, otherwise the "Crosstown" moniker is pointless.

I have said it before, and I'll say it again: there is plenty of space at the side of the street, and the above ground section of the line should be below-grade. All stops should be at proper stations which should have subway-like spacing and subway-like platforms with a fare-paid zone to give the trains subway-like speed. They can even have bus terminals at most of the stations to have seamless transfer to and from bus like the subway lines have now.

But we all know that will not happen. The Eglinton LRT, if built, will be just like the other streetcar lines. At least, hopefully Metrolinx's stance will force the TTC to rethink the way it builds LRT, if not necessarily replace them with subway.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

My understanding is the province put its share of the Spadina extension into a non-revocable trust. Meaning the money could only be used for one thing, the extension of the Spadina subway. I suppose a Mike Harris type of government could pull the plug on the project. But they still couldn't access the money so what would the point be?

But the combined cost of all Metrolinx projects is a lot higher than just Spadina extension. Therefore, it is unthinkable that all money will be directed into a non-revocable trust in one jumbo installment. It will be set as a yearly or so allowance, and as such, might be stopped prematurely.

However, I'd think that at least a commitment from the present goverment to invest a set amount of money into GTA's transit infrastructure, in a set timeframe, would constitute a reasonably solid basis for planning.

Presently, we don't have that. MoveOntario 2020 is a promise, not a real commitment from the provincial goverment; it calls for 1/3 contribution from the Feds which has not even been reviewed by them; and even if comes in full, it still falls short of Metrolinx plans.

 

[Rainforest]

Rainforest

Nice try. Pedantic, but nice. The Eglinton LRT will stop at red lights once outside the tunnel.

Sure it will. But there is an option to run supplementary short-turn service for the tunnel portion only. That component will not depend on delays / disruptions caused by the street traffic.

Another solution, that departs from the present plan substantially but still retains some of its benefits, is a kind of "LRT+" on Eglinton: fully grade-separate for all length, but using LRT gauge / vehicles / low floor. That would be similar to an ICTS line in many ways (speed, stop spacing, capacity, cost) but would retain the benefits of common vehicles / maintenance facilities / emergency re-routing / station at Pearson with other LRT lines in the region.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Nice try. Pedantic, but nice. The Eglinton LRT will stop at red lights once outside the tunnel.

Not necessarily. They could go to this extreme outside the tunnels, check on this link, or this link. I hope the TTC doesn't go that far, but your wish is my command.