RedRocket191
Senior Member
This is how they roll in the more suburban parts of Calgary.
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Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate
- Thread starter Dan416
- Start date
This is how they roll in the more suburban parts of Calgary.
urbanboom
Active Member
Wait, you mean that Calgary and Houston are different cities?
RedRocket191
Senior Member
Sometimes even I can't tell.
CDL.TO
Moderator
Calgary's the one with snowstorms in May.
scarberiankhatru
Senior Member
How nice for people riding Eglinton in Scarborough or Etobicoke, knowing that other people in the centre of the line are getting a red light-free trip, one that lowers frequency on the surface stretches by limiting crosstown trains. Would riders be told via announcements or signs that the next train is turning back at Laird? If not, there'll be some awkward crowd movements on the platforms as the people going farther than that all have to move out of the way...or they'll have to transfer to continue on in the same direction on the same line, which is the most irritating kind of transfer.
That would mean not having stops at intersections and perpetually blocking off roads with those gates, crippling vehicular traffic for the entire city, including all connecting bus routes. Or reducing stop spacing and frequency to near-GO levels. Good job.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
From the Globe, by John Barber:
TTC
Bickering getting Eglinton transit nowhere
JOHN BARBER
jbarber@globeandmail.com
July 30, 2008
Poor Eglinton! Will its adolescent agony never cease? Will it never grow up into the legitimate avenue its fate decrees, as the latest (and longest) east-west concession road to follow first Queen and then Bloor into urban maturity, with a proper rapid-transit line marking the long-awaited occasion?
Only yesterday, the sad, 35-year story of dashed hopes and false starts for a tunnel under Eglinton seemed like quaint history. The McGuinty government had endorsed the latest plan - centrepiece of the Miller regime's proposed Transit City light-rail system - with alacrity, then went on to win a second majority. The new line was ready to roll. Then history returned and kicked everything sideways.
This time its chosen agent is a nebulous new agency named Metrolinx, created by the provincial government to implement its bold Toronto-area transit commitments. But instead of tying a bow on the already approved package and passing it to cabinet, the agency is ripping it open and messing with the Eglinton part, delaying gratification while inviting familiar disaster.
In any other circumstances, the dispute might not seem harmful. It seems that various planners and politicians think the Miller regime's plan is too modest, in particular that Eglinton should be upgraded to the status of a full subway rather than a partly tunnelled light-rail line. That sounds great, but to those with any sense of history it sounds suspiciously like trading a bird in hand for pie in the sky.
That's why the TTC reacted with actual alarm at the prospect of getting more money to build a bigger railway under Eglinton Avenue. If your institutional memory included a $140-million invoice to destroy a brand-new tunnel you had just paid that much to build - the fate of the last Eglinton subway a dozen years ago - you'd be worried too.
Everybody wants stable, long-term transit funding, but only a fool would presume it. After beginning an Eglinton tunnel under one government and filling it in under another, the TTC turned to light rail as a prudent, doable alternative to the traditional but fragile megaproject. Even before the Harris government cancelled the partly built subway, the agency presided over the collapse of at least two major plans for rapid transit on Eglinton.
The TTC claims it can build its version of the line for $2.2-billion, while anything else would cost two to three times as much. It is desperate to avoid repeating the error that has done such harm to transit in recent decades - spending immensely to build lightly used subway lines while ignoring sensible, relatively affordable upgrades to heavily used surface routes.
In short, the TTC remembers when the word "visionary" was no compliment, but rather a synonym for harebrained, and planned accordingly. Transit City was a triumph of common sense. But now the visionaries are regrouping for another assault, another Eglinton subway their goal.
As with all transit-planning disasters, this one already shows signs of heavy political manipulation, with supporters of potential mayoral candidate George Smitherman leading the rumbling - and in so doing helping to ensure that no decision gets made until after the next election, three years from now.
Then what happens? Presuming the subway forces win out, it could be another decade before anybody actually rides the line - presuming in addition that Premier Runciman and his finance minister du jour share the same views that once inspired the McGuinty government way back when.
The choice is to start digging now or to argue forever about how big the tunnel should be - and risk losing everything.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080730.BARBER30/TPStory/National/HYOntario
AoD
TTC
Bickering getting Eglinton transit nowhere
JOHN BARBER
jbarber@globeandmail.com
July 30, 2008
Poor Eglinton! Will its adolescent agony never cease? Will it never grow up into the legitimate avenue its fate decrees, as the latest (and longest) east-west concession road to follow first Queen and then Bloor into urban maturity, with a proper rapid-transit line marking the long-awaited occasion?
Only yesterday, the sad, 35-year story of dashed hopes and false starts for a tunnel under Eglinton seemed like quaint history. The McGuinty government had endorsed the latest plan - centrepiece of the Miller regime's proposed Transit City light-rail system - with alacrity, then went on to win a second majority. The new line was ready to roll. Then history returned and kicked everything sideways.
This time its chosen agent is a nebulous new agency named Metrolinx, created by the provincial government to implement its bold Toronto-area transit commitments. But instead of tying a bow on the already approved package and passing it to cabinet, the agency is ripping it open and messing with the Eglinton part, delaying gratification while inviting familiar disaster.
In any other circumstances, the dispute might not seem harmful. It seems that various planners and politicians think the Miller regime's plan is too modest, in particular that Eglinton should be upgraded to the status of a full subway rather than a partly tunnelled light-rail line. That sounds great, but to those with any sense of history it sounds suspiciously like trading a bird in hand for pie in the sky.
That's why the TTC reacted with actual alarm at the prospect of getting more money to build a bigger railway under Eglinton Avenue. If your institutional memory included a $140-million invoice to destroy a brand-new tunnel you had just paid that much to build - the fate of the last Eglinton subway a dozen years ago - you'd be worried too.
Everybody wants stable, long-term transit funding, but only a fool would presume it. After beginning an Eglinton tunnel under one government and filling it in under another, the TTC turned to light rail as a prudent, doable alternative to the traditional but fragile megaproject. Even before the Harris government cancelled the partly built subway, the agency presided over the collapse of at least two major plans for rapid transit on Eglinton.
The TTC claims it can build its version of the line for $2.2-billion, while anything else would cost two to three times as much. It is desperate to avoid repeating the error that has done such harm to transit in recent decades - spending immensely to build lightly used subway lines while ignoring sensible, relatively affordable upgrades to heavily used surface routes.
In short, the TTC remembers when the word "visionary" was no compliment, but rather a synonym for harebrained, and planned accordingly. Transit City was a triumph of common sense. But now the visionaries are regrouping for another assault, another Eglinton subway their goal.
As with all transit-planning disasters, this one already shows signs of heavy political manipulation, with supporters of potential mayoral candidate George Smitherman leading the rumbling - and in so doing helping to ensure that no decision gets made until after the next election, three years from now.
Then what happens? Presuming the subway forces win out, it could be another decade before anybody actually rides the line - presuming in addition that Premier Runciman and his finance minister du jour share the same views that once inspired the McGuinty government way back when.
The choice is to start digging now or to argue forever about how big the tunnel should be - and risk losing everything.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080730.BARBER30/TPStory/National/HYOntario
AoD
urbanboom
Active Member
^
OK, I think I can understand some of the arguments againt an Eglinton Subway
It's too expensive... blah blah blah
It will be used even less than Sheppard... blah blah blah
The Sky will fall if we build it... blah blah blah
But does Barber seem to say that we should go ahead with tunneled LRT without making it possible to convert to Subway when demand is incredibly high? (And demand it already high enough).
According to him, we will never need an Eglinton Subway and LRT will shut us up real good. That's very short sighted.
OK, I think I can understand some of the arguments againt an Eglinton Subway
It's too expensive... blah blah blah
It will be used even less than Sheppard... blah blah blah
The Sky will fall if we build it... blah blah blah
But does Barber seem to say that we should go ahead with tunneled LRT without making it possible to convert to Subway when demand is incredibly high? (And demand it already high enough).
According to him, we will never need an Eglinton Subway and LRT will shut us up real good. That's very short sighted.
Whoaccio
Senior Member
The more I think about it, the more I want the Canada Line. It is being built for 80 million a km in Vancouver for the love of god! The right capacity, the right image and the right price. I guess it is too late, but did anyone ever consider replacing the Scarborough RT with conventionally powered ICTS?
Anth
Active Member
waterloowarrior
Senior Member
Barber makes it sound like we could start building this line tomorrow.... has the EA even started yet?
Rainforest
Senior Member
Rainforest
It is not that difficult to inform the riders where the next train is going. Many city rail lines in the world, even London's tube, operate branches, and it does not seem to be a big problem.
A decent frequency can be maintained on the outer sections of the line, since the tunnel portion can allow very high frequency of the combined service. 5 min headways on the crosstown branch and 2.5 min combined in the central section is doable.
For someone whose source and destination would be near the Crosstown LRT stops, even the Scarborough to Etobicoke trip would be under 1 hour, much better than the use of two Eglinton buses today, and probably better than a detour via Bloor subway. Even though the train would stop at traffic lights in the outer sections, it will run on its ROW and not caught in traffic jams.
It is not that difficult to inform the riders where the next train is going. Many city rail lines in the world, even London's tube, operate branches, and it does not seem to be a big problem.
A decent frequency can be maintained on the outer sections of the line, since the tunnel portion can allow very high frequency of the combined service. 5 min headways on the crosstown branch and 2.5 min combined in the central section is doable.
For someone whose source and destination would be near the Crosstown LRT stops, even the Scarborough to Etobicoke trip would be under 1 hour, much better than the use of two Eglinton buses today, and probably better than a detour via Bloor subway. Even though the train would stop at traffic lights in the outer sections, it will run on its ROW and not caught in traffic jams.
rbt
Senior Member
Indeed. The Houston route does not block traffic in the downtown areas where stops are frequent. It has and obeys traffic lights.
Also of note, trains only ran every 15 minutes when I was there in January 2007 and stop spacing was very far apart (1/2 mile or larger spacing) at the south end of the line. More what I would expect with long-distance commutes rather than serving local community.
Filip
Senior Member
Hmm.. the location at Anglesey is pretty close to some of my stomping grounds.. I think I'll go, and constantly add that it should be a subway. Maybe if enough citizens do that, the TTC might take another look in the mirror (or in its plans).
Hipster Duck
Senior Member
And to add, even despite all these measures (crossing gates that WK Lis showed), the Houston metro has had a horrible time with cars disobeying the rights of way and crashing into light rail vehicles at intersections. This youtube video is a riot; all its missing is the zany Dixieland soundtrack. When Phoenix inaugurates its mostly street-running LRT in December, I expect the same sort of demolition derby to take place in that auto-centric city, and I don't think I'm scaremongering when I say that Transit City opens on suburban arterials here in Toronto, it will be prone to similar mash-ups and crash-ups.
kettal
Banned
It's only that cheap in the way cell phones are cheap when you buy a 3 year contract. Translink still has to pay more to the private operator back over the years for the construction. But yeah, is better than Scarborough RT.