Eglinton-Crosstown Corridor Debate

[RedRocket191]

Note that the percentage of cross-Yonge trips is likely to grow when the line becomes faster and more reliable (underground LRT versus mixed-traffic buses).

I guess the question is: Why aren't people making cross-Yonge trips?

Is it because the current service is unattractive for such things, or is it because the vast majority of people have no need to make such a trip?

 

[DavidH]

Is it because the current service is unattractive for such things, or is it because the vast majority of people have no need to make such a trip?

Given the vast number of people driving the 401 *through* Yonge without exiting, I'd have to say the former.

 

[RedRocket191]

Given the vast number of people driving the 401 *through* Yonge without exiting, I'd have to say the former.

And that says to me that the location of the crosstown corridor should be much further north than Eglinton. 401 corridor works for me, but I see a high-capacity transitway rather than a train due to the need to serve destinations just off the corridor.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

If we want good cross-town service Afransen is absolutely right. We need GO style service.

So why not use the crosstown tracks along Dupont for this purpose? They would serve roughly the same areas that the Eg line would from a crosstown travel perspective and, despite the diversion south, if station spacing were around 2-4 kms it would be much faster that taking the Eg LRT.

 

[Voltz]

So why not use the crosstown tracks along Dupont for this purpose? They would serve roughly the same areas that the Eg line would from a crosstown travel perspective and, despite the diversion south, if station spacing were around 2-4 kms it would be much faster that taking the Eg LRT.

Because it's not a subway, and some people refuse to consider how good a GO Train line can be and only want mass transit that consists of shiny tubes running back and forth through expensive tunnels.

 

[DavidH]

Because it's not a subway, and some people refuse to consider how good a GO Train line can be and only want mass transit that consists of shiny tubes running back and forth through expensive tunnels.

Relatively few Toronto residents have direct experience of GO. Certainly I didn't until I bought a house within a few minutes walk of Long Branch GO Station. But there is also a bias that the next train *must* come within a few minutes or it's not rapid transit.

As for crosstown, it's planned, but currently listed by GO as "commuter" rather than "core" service, meaning it would be rush-hour only.

 

[afransen]

That's exactly what's needed. Burying Eglinton and spacing stops 800+m along the entire line won't do much. It'll still be about as slow as the Bloor-Danforth line. There is a direct trade-off here: cross-town functionality vs. local service. What most Eglinton riders need is local service. Superseding their needs with a widely spaced subway network would serve neither objective of well. Jack of all, master of none gambit. Instead, we are getting good local service and marginal cross-town functionality which will work for most who will only use that function on a rare occasion.

If we want good cross-town service Afransen is absolutely right. We need GO style service.

No, GO-style service would be a disaster as express. Mean wait times of 15 - 30 minutes (for service every 30 - 60 minutes) would slaughter trip times. We need frequent express service that meets up with the Eglinton corridor at each station. In other words, frequencies of better than 7 or 10 minutes during the day. Now, I don't know if the Midtown corridor can live up to this requirement, especially for linkages to Eglinton at each station. Express pays off when it plays nice with local routes.

 

[Rainforest]

No, GO-style service would be a disaster as express. Mean wait times of 15 - 30 minutes (for service every 30 - 60 minutes) would slaughter trip times. We need frequent express service that meets up with the Eglinton corridor at each station. In other words, frequencies of better than 7 or 10 minutes during the day. Now, I don't know if the Midtown corridor can live up to this requirement, especially for linkages to Eglinton at each station. Express pays off when it plays nice with local routes.

GO trains every 7 or 10 min does not sound realistic, but every 15 min should be doable. For really long trips, like Scarborough to the airport, the speed will compensate for the wait time and infrequent stops.

For medium length trips, the LRT line should be good enough. For example, Jane to Don Mills: 10 km in tunnel = 20 min, plus 4 km on surface = 10 min, for about 1/2 h in total.

 

[afransen]

We needn't use GO trains (loco + double decker cars).

 

[kEiThZ]

So why not use the crosstown tracks along Dupont for this purpose? They would serve roughly the same areas that the Eg line would from a crosstown travel perspective and, despite the diversion south, if station spacing were around 2-4 kms it would be much faster that taking the Eg LRT.

Good question. Why not use the crosstown for airport service? I suspect it has a lot to do with some hidden clause giving Blue 22 exclusive access to the airport. A crosstown GO line from Agincourt to the airport would have significant demand. Instead, the MO2020 gives us crosstown service from Agincourt to Weston.

Relatively few Toronto residents have direct experience of GO. Certainly I didn't until I bought a house within a few minutes walk of Long Branch GO Station. But there is also a bias that the next train *must* come within a few minutes or it's not rapid transit.

As for crosstown, it's planned, but currently listed by GO as "commuter" rather than "core" service, meaning it would be rush-hour only.

I don't think familiarity is an issue. Certainly, Metro residents aren't apt to use GO on a daily basis. But I am sure that if the service was there you would find riders quickly. As it stands, GO today is not the most convenient service inside the 416. And then there's challenges like fare integration, service integration with TTC surface routes, etc. Fix those and more people will be taking GO. This is what leaves me disappointed about the crosstown being planned as a commuter instead of a core service. That won't resolve any of those issues.

 

[RedRocket191]

We needn't use GO trains (loco + double decker cars).

Just at the TTC evolved from horsecars to streetcars to subway trains GO can also evolve...

 

[DavidH]

I don't think familiarity is an issue. Certainly, Metro residents aren't apt to use GO on a daily basis. But I am sure that if the service was there you would find riders quickly.

I'm not saying that GO wouldn't find the riders; I'm saying that improving GO as a way of serving crosstown riders simply isn't part of the Toronto mindset.

We've seen over and over again that the public generally wants more of the modes they are familiar with.

 

[cacruden]

Good question. Why not use the crosstown for airport service? I suspect it has a lot to do with some hidden clause giving Blue 22 exclusive access to the airport. A crosstown GO line from Agincourt to the airport would have significant demand. Instead, the MO2020 gives us crosstown service from Agincourt to Weston.



I don't think familiarity is an issue. Certainly, Metro residents aren't apt to use GO on a daily basis. But I am sure that if the service was there you would find riders quickly. As it stands, GO today is not the most convenient service inside the 416. And then there's challenges like fare integration, service integration with TTC surface routes, etc. Fix those and more people will be taking GO. This is what leaves me disappointed about the crosstown being planned as a commuter instead of a core service. That won't resolve any of those issues.

Also for GO to operate more frequently, they have to get rid of level crossings so that lighter stock of train cars can be used, and along with electrification - and a few alterations - would be able to operate more frequently. They can add more go trains, and have some do short-turns just around the city edge if regional traffic does not warrant. They could also take a two of the northern routes and turn it into a V route

 

[RedRocket191]

I'm not saying that GO wouldn't find the riders; I'm saying that improving GO as a way of serving crosstown riders simply isn't part of the Toronto mindset.

We've seen over and over again that the public generally wants more of the modes they are familiar with.

But i don't see how a good marketing campaign can't change that... YRT+VIVA=1SYSTEM branding seemed to work pretty well, so why not something similar when fare integration comes in?

 

[Automation Gallery]

This says it all.

If there's a single answer to the problems of the Toronto region, it's transit. But we have fallen so far behind,we're now willing to settle for second-best solutions, buses instead of LRTs, LRTs instead of subways.

http://www.thestar.com/GTA/Columnist/article/621091