DRL routing. Where would you put it?

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Someone on SSC proposed something similar way back a few years ago. Where the DRL would form part of the B/D line with two branches. On traveling via downtown and one via Bloor/Yonge. Was pretty detailed IIRC and was hard to argue against as well.

 

[BurlOak]

Someone on SSC proposed something similar way back a few years ago. Where the DRL would form part of the B/D line with two branches. On traveling via downtown and one via Bloor/Yonge. Was pretty detailed IIRC and was hard to argue against as well.

I am guessing you are referring to the so called "Downtown Belt Line" by TRZ (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=670156)

This was discussed a few pages back (http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/18221-DRL-routing.-Where-would-you-put-it/page7). I think we may have to revisit some concepts there because the current method of TBM with very deep stations is exceedingly expensive. This, or perhaps some other less expensive ways of building subways need to be considered - perhaps even unduring some greater disruptions to save money and make the project viable.

 

[CanadianNational]

Thanks for that link, JoeParez. I really like the 'Flying U'! If it had been combined with a 'through' Bloor line that could have acted like an express track, we'd really be talking.

re: Palma:
I heard Adam Vaughan say the same thing about Dufferin in the council chamber, on the big day of the transit debate. He said that it had generally been conceded that the line would proceed up Dufferin after having (if I remember correctly) having gotten quite close to Exhibition. Whether it was to pass by the north, or actually meet the site, I don't remember. Anyway, I was pretty interested in that idea. Dufferin, like Bathurst, is a relatively unimproved main north-south street.
He said that Dufferin was floated, then Bathurst was temporarily considered - at least for part of the length - and then the plan fell solidly on routing up the Allan Expressway. Vaughan cited costs as being the main issue as to why the line ended up being relatively isolated, instead of being dug through the urban streets.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

I am guessing you are referring to the so called "Downtown Belt Line" by TRZ (http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=670156)

This was discussed a few pages back (http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/18221-DRL-routing.-Where-would-you-put-it/page7). I think we may have to revisit some concepts there because the current method of TBM with very deep stations is exceedingly expensive. This, or perhaps some other less expensive ways of building subways need to be considered - perhaps even unduring some greater disruptions to save money and make the project viable.

That's the one...

 

[Palma]

T Vaughan cited costs as being the main issue as to why the line ended up being relatively isolated, instead of being dug through the urban streets.

. Costs! Nothing ever changes in Toronto. It was isolated and is isolated and then the complaining about why the line was underused when it opened and still is. I feel the line north of Eglinton should just be an LRT. It slows down as soon as it leaves Eglinton. It never seems to run subways type speed north of Eglinton. At least now on the new trains I finally saw the map showing the Spadina line situated true to form - instead of making it seem like it was near Spadina all the way up to Wilson. I think the fantasy maps we see around should also be corrected.

 

[Rainforest]

.It slows down as soon as it leaves Eglinton. It never seems to run subways type speed north of Eglinton.

I think this is partly due to the distance between stations: more than 2 km between St Clair West and Eglinton West, versus 1 km on average between Eglinton and Wilson. In addition, a train running in the tunnel visually seems running faster than in the open because the walls are so close.

 

[Palma]

You could be right but it was not the visual as much as the way it felt. I used it it for over 10 years.

 

[car4041]

.I feel the line north of Eglinton should just be an LRT. It slows down as soon as it leaves Eglinton. It never seems to run subways type speed north of Eglinton.

Like Rainforest said, this is mostly just a matter of perception -- when you're in a tunnel, the walls whizzing past a foot from your eyes and the sound of the train echoing off the walls make it seem like you're going really fast (when actually you're not). When you get out into the open, you realize that the subway actually only travels at a moderate speed (compared to traffic on the Allen, for example).

 

[spider]

How about a DRL route in the East end that runs in the Hydro ROW that bisects all the main streets in Scarborough and ends up at a power station in Leaside at which point the abandoned (I think) CPR line down the Don Valley to downtown.
Assuming the purpose of the DRL is to provide relief for the downtown bound riders that are overwhelming the Yonge subway, this route could pick up riders from all of the Scarborough Bus routes that it crosses. It would be relatively cheap to build and operate but is contingent on acquiring ROW from the Hydro authority and purchasing the CPR line.

I am sorry to take up your time if this proposal has already been made which I guess it has since it is so obvious.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

That section will be very similiar to the alignment of the Eglinton line, and travelling south along Don Valley doesn't offer any benefit to nodes south of Eglinton.

AoD

 

[Silence&Motion]

RE: East end routing

I've seen most people route the DRL along Don Mills. However I've always thought of Don Mills as a very disconnected street built mostly for speedy car travel and not an ideal corridor for a subway. There are some exceptions (Don Mills and Lawrence, for instance), but in general Don Mills has a lot of things holding back its ability to urbanize. Its uneven terrain means that buildings are often built on a different level and far back from the actual street. Being sandwiched between two valleys also limits its potential for development and its street connections.

Victoria Park, on the other hand, is narrower and better connected to surrounding neighbourhoods. It already has apartment blocks built closely up to the street. I think it has more potential to become urbanized. At any given time you'll see far more pedestrians walking along Victoria Park than you would Don Mills. I fear Don Mills could be another Allen Road subway line, whereas Victoria Park could develop more like the suburban ends of the Bloor-Danforth and Yonge lines.

An example of what I'm talking about:

Victoria Park just north of Eglinton


Don Mills just north of Eglinton

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Well, the DRL doesn't have to follow a street - maybe it can veer away from Don Mills and Lawrence (which will emerge as a node) and travel up Victoria Park instead?

AoD

 

[spider]

Well, the DRL doesn't have to follow a street - maybe it can veer away from Don Mills and Lawrence (which will emerge as a node) and travel up Victoria Park instead?

Why should it FOLLOW a street at all? Better to intersect with many streets and offer better transit to people on more than one street, the DRL is not meant to reinforce or replace one route. A diagonally routed DRL could collect and divert riders from the Yonge subway from Don Mills, Victoria Park, Pharmacy, Warden etc rather than just Victoria Park or Don Mills. Hydro tower lines don't follow streets for the same reason a DRL need not follow streets.

 

[M II A II R II K]

They could build an elevated expressway above the DVP, and have the subway run in the middle of it like the Allen Expressway but elevated, and also provide extra road capacity for that corridor too. And being elevated it would connect with the streets better.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

spider:

Why should it FOLLOW a street at all? Better to intersect with many streets and offer better transit to people on more than one street, the DRL is not meant to reinforce or replace one route. A diagonally routed DRL could collect and divert riders from the Yonge subway from Don Mills, Victoria Park, Pharmacy, Warden etc rather than just Victoria Park or Don Mills. Hydro tower lines don't follow streets for the same reason a DRL need not follow streets.

It doesn't have to follow a street - doesn't mean it shouldn't try to connect with nodes. The idea of collecting as much of the riders from said bus lines is a sound one, but the hydro corridor you've indicated is way too close to the Eglinton line to such an extent that you might very well be duplicating the effect.

MARK:

South of Eglinton, there really isn't all that many streets to connect to - and the proposed alignment through Flemington and Thorncliffe Park is probably the best at hitting all the high traffic nodes in the area.

AoD