DRL: Pitching DRL to the Mayor. Seriously.

[cacruden]

A Go/DRL transfer point at Cherry Rd would be nice :rollin

 

[roch5220]

Flemingdon Park is, shockingly, a very busy bus route. It would undoubtedly be a very well-used subway station, along with Thorncliffe Park. East York Centre is definitely an area that could use some spark, and a subway would do it. There are far more people along Don Mills than along the Spadina line, so that's a very useful selling point. It would also eliminate the jog on the Lawrence bus route, and dramatically speed trips downtown for people in the east end, since the stops would be significantly less frequent than on the Yonge line.

Fully agree. When the sheppard line is finished, and if an DRL extension, say phase 4-5, connects the DRL with Sheppard, it would create create 2 rings (don mills-danforth-yonge-sheppard, and don mills-danforth-sheppard-SRT) that would serve the eastern city very well. The buses that would be freed up could be used to increase feed the system within the rings. And as commutting routes are always changing, it would create a great backbone of the eastern city transit system.

 

[EnviroTO]

I think the DRL needs to be pitched to the TTC before it needs to be pitched to politicians. It wasn't even considered in RTES which made no sense to me. Why consider subway extensions to MCC when Mississauga has shown no interest in it but not the DRL.

 

[cacruden]

Does anyone know of density predictions (map) for Toronto for the next 10 and 25 years?

Actual numbers might help, especially if you can "project" ridership based on changes of density using historical information (as density increases -- the more people percentage-wise would "likely" use the subway).

If the numbers indicate that not building a DRL will lead to congestion problems in the Bloor/Yonge transfer point, which would lead to pushing people back into their cars, thereby increasing congestion in the Toronto core, and reducing the efficiency of traffic -- that would lead to Toronto downtown being a less attractive place to do business.

Without numbers and a convincing arguement, any request for public money -- would likely be disregarded outright.

It is just another business case that you are trying to put together -- not a "pitch".

 

[roch5220]

Your not going to get anyware pitching numbers because there are only a few routes that even suggest the possibility (surface routes) of upgrade to streetcar, let alone full blow subway. If you surf through old Transit reports, they hold surface route ridership numbers. I even remember reading a city report that stated that building subways for Toronto were just 'City building' and for international prestiage (I take it they are referring to future ones, and not the YUL) rather than actual demand.

 

[cacruden]

Well, I think that leaves us with no chance in hell :rollin

 

[Degnaw]

^The downtown area definetly needs a subway route... and international prestige is needed too (higher per-cap ridership than Chicago, yet barely 60%-70% system length?)

 

[boiler2000]

Current surface route ridership doesn't really tell you what the ridership would be on a subway or LRT line. Such projects would probably significantly increase the percentage of the surrounding population using the line, as well as increasing that population by stimulating development.

Am I wrong?

 

[cacruden]

Surface route ridership is part if the numbers that can be projected, but they also include bleeding more ridership off of other surface routes nearby (I walk 10 minutes to the subway and ignore the streetcar).

But it is highly likely that based on historic data, as density increased around an existing line, that the percentage of riders increased as well (i.e. 30% of potential riders instead 25% of potential riders). As density increases the congestion around that area increases, and this makes it less desirable to drive IF there is a reasonable alternative.

If the person cannot efficiently take transit, or they have to stand out in the cold waiting for transit, then they are more likely to get a car and drive (it is more comfortable to be idling in your car with your ipod than taking a circuitous route to your destination).

If the solution to Toronto's transit problems is Street-cars and buses, then it is going to be less desireable to take public transit since people generally don't like standing out on cold days waiting for overcrowded buses.

 

[unimaginative2]

I think the DRL needs to be pitched to the TTC before it needs to be pitched to politicians. It wasn't even considered in RTES which made no sense to me. Why consider subway extensions to MCC when Mississauga has shown no interest in it but not the DRL.

I disagree. You definitely have to get this on the politicians' viewscreen. If you get it there, the TTC will have no choice but to study it. The TTC is a kind of organization that would never take planning ideas from the great unwashed members of the community. They will continue to study the same projects that they've been studying since the Rae days. I'm really not trying to be negative, but the problem is that they view subways as a purely political choice anyway, so there's no point in trying to get them to advocate for a route.

I am a little baffled by the TTC's view of subways as prestige projects, a view that is unique among the world's transit authorities.

 

[roch5220]

My take on subway development, is that most projects being studied right now are no really needed. Looking at current commutting patterns, there really hasn't been a large increase in demand for downtown commuttes. Which means that has the job market grows, jobs are being concentrated in other areas. If jobs were increasing largely downtown, that would warrent a better cost benefit of building expensive subways that bring people downtown as people are going the same direction.

Given job growth is happening outside of downtown, then wasting billions of dollars on subways in surburban lesser dense areas is a waste of overall transit dollars. Which is why I prefer LRT all the way.

The amount of jobs in Toronto has decrease approx 100K over the last couple of years? Does that warrant billions of dollars of subways within 416?

A couple of things have to happen that would promote subway development on a mass scale that would support the underlying economics. White collar employers have to be encouraged to locate downtown. Hence, a revamped property tax structure, and incentives have to be given to employers who locate in in preferential areas. One benefit could be relief or waiving of employer paid health benefit taxes on payrolls. The list of incentives are long that could be offered to promote better organization within the GTA.

 

[socialwoe]

The downtown area definetly needs a subway route... and international prestige is needed too (higher per-cap ridership than Chicago, yet barely 60%-70% system length?)

Thanks, for posting that map! It only confirms that ridership and employment areas in the core gravitate around YUS and Queen St.

Am I wrong?

No, you're not! If ridership's so high today imagine the unlimited possibilities for development and growth should a subway revitalize downtown.

I think the DRL needs to be pitched to the TTC before it needs to be pitched to politicians. It wasn't even considered in RTES which made no sense to me. Why consider subway extensions to MCC when Mississauga has shown no interest in it but not the DRL.

Because the TTC's deluded itself into thinking suburb-centrically. Existing population densities within it's own borders mean nothing to them since funding will come out of their own pockets. Having adjacent cities or the provincial government (only as a regional NOT municipal venture)contribute takes onus over where people actually want to go.

I am a little baffled by the TTC's view of subways as prestige projects, a view that is unique among the world's transit authorities.

You know! And I bet if private entities wanted to build lines in areas where they're desperately needed, the TTC would pull every trick in the book to can it.

The amount of jobs in Toronto has decrease approx 100K over the last couple of years? Does that warrant billions of dollars of subways within 416?

Speak for yourself! There can't be extraneous peripherial subways without them connecting to Toronto somehow. Jobs decrease in Toronto because of decreasing availability of resouces, including inaccessibilty to reliable public transit. A new downtown core line would open up the city so much than ever before, encouraging more companies to come back.

Hence, a revamped property tax structure, and incentives have to be given to employers who locate in in preferential areas. One benefit could be relief or waiving of employer paid health benefit taxes on payrolls. The list of incentives are long that could be offered to promote better organization within the GTA.

Exactly!

 

[cacruden]

ridership and employment areas in the core gravitate around YUS and Queen St.

Actually it is around King St. not Queen St. - Queen St is the northern border.

 

[Brighter Hell]

My take on subway development, is that most projects being studied right now are no really needed. Looking at current commutting patterns, there really hasn't been a large increase in demand for downtown commuttes. Which means that has the job market grows, jobs are being concentrated in other areas. If jobs were increasing largely downtown, that would warrent a better cost benefit of building expensive subways that bring people downtown as people are going the same direction.

Given job growth is happening outside of downtown, then wasting billions of dollars on subways in surburban lesser dense areas is a waste of overall transit dollars. Which is why I prefer LRT all the way.

The amount of jobs in Toronto has decrease approx 100K over the last couple of years? Does that warrant billions of dollars of subways within 416?

A couple of things have to happen that would promote subway development on a mass scale that would support the underlying economics. White collar employers have to be encouraged to locate downtown. Hence, a revamped property tax structure, and incentives have to be given to employers who locate in in preferential areas. One benefit could be relief or waiving of employer paid health benefit taxes on payrolls. The list of incentives are long that could be offered to promote better organization within the GTA.

The number of jobs downtown and city-wide has increased the last couple years. There were drops in the 90s and after 2001 or so but the job market has been recovering since then. TTC and GO ridership have been rising and so has the number or residents in the core. Even if the numbers weren't going up, the demand has always been there to relieve the overcrowded and slow streetcars downtown.

 

[cacruden]

You know! And I bet if private entities wanted to build lines in areas where they're desperately needed, the TTC would pull every trick in the book to can it.

Exactly, change the transit collection system to a computerized one, which is zone-based, and provides information which allocates funds collected (fares) to the lines that actually are used (transfer - splits the funds based on entry/exit information).

Once that is done, then you can see if any private money can be encouraged into the system. Allow private companies to build and run subway lines. If the TTC management is not interested in new subways, maybe we can find some company that is.