Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

[sixrings]

I like drunkalunks Map. The one part of the map which I like is how you have the Bathurst Streetcar going north to St. Claire. I would push that Streetcar farther north to finch. The new Streetcars are going to be amazing, will carry more people and might get some car drivers on transit so I think going farther into the suburbs is ok. Not LRT style but more like St. Claire or Spadinas ROW. I would suggest this as well with DUFFERIN. It already is one of the busiest bus routes and its a area that needs new life in it. A ROW streetcar could serve two purposes.

At this point though I am happy with any affordable above ground Subway on the train lines which allows us to have money left over for other projects. This to me is more important then spending all our money on a underground QUEEN subway.

 

[unimaginative2]

Yeah, I definitely agree with Bathurst to St. Clair. I've always thought that it should terminate at St. Clair West station.

 

[sixrings]

Id like the TC map to have twice as many LRT lines as it does. But if streetcars (with less stops) are cheaper then there are places like dufferen and Bathurst which are pretty dense that I think would be good candidates. Maybe they should leave LRT for places like finch, lawrence, kipling or islington where there will be no issues putting it in its own lane because its a wider street.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

What should happen is everyone should just give up their cars and take transit instead.

 

[Justin10000]

I don't think extending the 511 St. Clair West is a good idea. You'll be forcing a transfer for a lot of riders at St. Clair West Station, and significantly increase their travel time. The 7 Bathurst is doing an OK job as it is. If the TTC would invest in 60 footers..

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

Yeah, I definitely agree with Bathurst to St. Clair. I've always thought that it should terminate at St. Clair West station.

Or possbily Eglinton W (meets the Eg LRT) or Wilson too. In fact with the Dufferin jog gone I'd like to see the return of the Dufferin streetcar from Wilson (or whatever) to the CNE. The two lines would bookend the University-Spadina line nicely.

***EDIT***
The only limiting factor I would guess is the width of the streets

@Justin:

I suppose it would depend on how many riders from north of St. Clair take the 7 all the way down to Bloor. I can't imagine many do, since the subway would be close enough to be an attractive option (even if one backtracked from St George to Bathurst station. Ufortunately transfers are a part of life, we can't give every rider a one seat ride for every one of their trips. All the major E-W routes in the city are split into forced transfers.

 

[reaperexpress]

I don't think extending the 511 St. Clair West is a good idea. You'll be forcing a transfer for a lot of riders at St. Clair West Station, and significantly increase their travel time.

Or you could compromise by having every other 511 turn back at Bathurst Station and every other 7 turn back at St. Clair West. That would increase convenience for many people because the 7 currently skips St.Clair West entirely. And besides, it's faster for people going south on the 7 to get off at St. Clair West and take the subway, but that transfer is rather inconvenient at the moment.

 

[dunkalunk]

The tracks between St. Clair and Bloor and Bathurst already exist, so its not like any new infrastucture would need to be built except for wires. there are already significant stretches of track on Parliament and Dufferin as well.

[edit] Here is a map of all existing streetcar trackage in Toronto.

 

[unimaginative2]

I don't think extending the 511 St. Clair West is a good idea. You'll be forcing a transfer for a lot of riders at St. Clair West Station, and significantly increase their travel time. The 7 Bathurst is doing an OK job as it is. If the TTC would invest in 60 footers..

Yeah, but a lot of 7 riders would love a direct transfer to the subway at St. Clair West.

 

[Justin10000]

@Justin:

I suppose it would depend on how many riders from north of St. Clair take the 7 all the way down to Bloor. I can't imagine many do, since the subway would be close enough to be an attractive option (even if one backtracked from St George to Bathurst station. Ufortunately transfers are a part of life, we can't give every rider a one seat ride for every one of their trips. All the major E-W routes in the city are split into forced transfers.

A lot of riders go to Bathurst Station. In fact, you can stand at St. Clair/Bathurst, and observe not many people get off the bus to travel to St. Clair West station. It's just easier to go to Bathurst Station. Yeah transfers are a way of life. Problem is, you are taking away what is normally a simple trip to Bathurst, and making it much longer for many riders. What is the point of even running the 511 to St. Clair, anyways?

@unimaginative2: How do you know a lot of 7riders would love a direct transfer to St. Clair West Station? What makes you think they hate going to Bathurst Station?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

With all due respect but anyone who talks about trying to handle the needs of the downtown core with a purely LRT solution is dreaming. The Queen and King cars already carry what? nearly 90 000 riders a day, add to that the riders that will be drawn off the Bloor-Danforth line and you are already pushing the limits of the TC LRT system capacity are you not?

Yes, the DRL is needed, but we can also move a lot more people on the streetcar lines. It's not 90,000. Divide that by 4...King West, King East, Queen West, Queen East. Hell, divide that by 40 at times, what with 10, 20, 30 minute waits for a streetcar being practically routine. Throw in oodles of short-distance trips on Queen, especially, and it also reduces that number in reality.

Ideally, some DRL users will transfer to improved streetcar service and get east and west much easier/quicker. This is becoming more of an issue as the core grows beyond the Simcoe-Church corridor, as post-secondary enrollment goes up, as condos go in all over, etc. It's not like DRL users are going to want to take the DRL, transfer to the YUS line (at some point), take the YUS line to another point, and then get on a trundling disaster to go east/west. Build the DRL and improve the streetcar lines and it'll help basically everywhere south of Bloor. Things like POP and a bit more enforcement and signal priority could make DRL-to-streetcar trips viable for many people, keeping them off the YUS and BD lines altogether.

Yeah, but a lot of 7 riders would love a direct transfer to the subway at St. Clair West.

Tons of them just get off the Bathurst bus and go east on Bloor, to change to the YUS line. Especially for people farther north on Bathurst, cutting the route in two at Sr. Clair West might be better than at Bathurst station.

 

[Rainforest]

I like drunkalunks Map. The one part of the map which I like is how you have the Bathurst Streetcar going north to St. Claire. I would push that Streetcar farther north to finch. The new Streetcars are going to be amazing, will carry more people and might get some car drivers on transit so I think going farther into the suburbs is ok. Not LRT style but more like St. Claire or Spadinas ROW. I would suggest this as well with DUFFERIN. It already is one of the busiest bus routes and its a area that needs new life in it. A ROW streetcar could serve two purposes.

It should be noted that south of Wilson, both Bathurst and Dufferin are too narrow to accommodate dedicated transit lanes. Speaking of mixed-traffic streetcars, the expense of installing them on Dufferin, or on Bathurst north of St Clair, hardly can be justified. Mixed-traffic streetcars may have higher capacity than buses, but are slower and less reliable.

Given that the Bathurst between Bloor and St Clair has streetcar tracks already, extending the 511 streetcar to St Clair is feasible. But according to my observations, most of bus 7 riders want to go to Bathurst Stn.

 

[sixrings]

I am sure Dufferin could be widened. IF Lawrence and Dufferin sees redevelopment which there is a major preposal somewhere on another thread here and Yorkdale starts seeing condos being lined across the street on dufferin and Eglinton sees redevelopment because of the LRT then an already busy route will see more riders. PLus with all the development happening the streets will have to be addressed to. Widening the road to accomodate a Streetcar might make sense. Or how about in the areas where it can fit ROW have ROW and the other areas which can only support mixed traffic have the streetcar in mixed traffic.

Bathurst was suggested because the tracks already exsist. Add the LRT on Eglinton and I would support the streetcar connecting to the LRT line. However if Lawrence sees a LRT being constructed again the streetcar should connect to lawrence. A connected city with new streetcars and increasing congestion will cause people to rethink using transit. It would also make the older riders more satified with new Streetcars VS the buses they have been using.

 

[unimaginative2]

Lots of 7 bus riders go down to Bloor, but a lot of them are just going to transfer onto the YUS at St. George.

 

[reaperexpress]

The tracks between St. Clair and Bloor and Bathurst already exist, so its not like any new infrastucture would need to be built except for wires.

Wires are already in place and functional. The TTC uses the track to drive out of service 512 streetcars back to the yard.