Downtown Rapid Transit Expansion Study

[sixrings]

That must be why almost all southbound AM peak Yonge trains empty out by the time they get to King Street? Or the rush north from Union Station? There are only a handful of towers "destinations" between Simcoe and Yonge along Front. The rest is residential and not contributing to the existing subway congestion. The TTC didn't even see fit to save the 121 bus.

i agree that a queen line serves the best destinations. why is it right to justify building a line for the residents south of queen but be upset if residents or condos move to queen? btw condos dont need to be right on queen they could be located just south or just north in walking distances.

 

[EnviroTO]

Almost all the development in old Toronto but outside the core is happening between Queen and the waterfront. As such, the best place to put a higher order local transit line is somewhere between Queen and the water's edge. It isn't that people north of Queen are less important, it is that the density south of Queen will be a higher density for a long time to come because Toronto's industrial past has left a lot more large development properties south of Queen and small detached and semi-detached lots north of Queen in neighbourhoods that will fight tooth and nail to prevent becoming condos. Some day north of Queen will also likely get redeveloped but also as likely some day another line in addition to the DRL we are talking about now many be required.

 

[nfitz]

On the other hand, Steve Munro has commented that he has seen the actual report ... which might actually show Woodbine.

Steve has now confirmed that the text of the Metrolinx report states that proposed line goes to Pape, not Woodbine. So it's merely an error by the Star - probably not unlike that just ended up in the Post, where the article talks about the Sheppard subway to Scarborough Centre, but the illustration shows it going straight along Sheppard to Meadowvale.

I presume that a full apology from Northern Magus will be forthcoming ... once the re-opened scab on his nose heals.

 

[ssiguy2]

Although it nice that Metrolinx will be able to say it's doing something for the residents of Toronto another study is a waste of time and effort.
Studying is one thing setting priorities is quite another. Toronto has absolutley no idea what it wants to do past 2020, whether that be extending Eglinton to Pearson, a DRL, finishing the Sheppard line, extending Yonge north, or extending the BD east and/or west. It, of course, has no idea how to pay for them and contemplating anything besides crying to Queen's Park requires political will which is something Metrolinx lacks.
Another example of kicking the can down the road leaving the long suffering Toronto commuters wallowing in traffic or packed like sardines on an already under capacity system.

 

[Palma]

i agree that a queen line serves the best destinations. why is it right to justify building a line for the residents south of queen but be upset if residents or condos move to queen? btw condos dont need to be right on queen they could be located just south or just north in walking distances.

Oh ya, thats where they will be built, north or south of Queen!. Queen is too close to Bloor to build a subway. Makes no sense since it already has a streetcar vs whats on Front St now and for residents living also south of front.

 

[Palma]

Almost all the development in old Toronto but outside the core is happening between Queen and the waterfront. As such, the best place to put a higher order local transit line is somewhere between Queen and the water's edge. It isn't that people north of Queen are less important, it is that the density south of Queen will be a higher density for a long time to come because Toronto's industrial past has left a lot more large development properties south of Queen and small detached and semi-detached lots north of Queen in neighbourhoods that will fight tooth and nail to prevent becoming condos. Some day north of Queen will also likely get redeveloped but also as likely some day another line in addition to the DRL we are talking about now many be required.

Makes perfect sense to me.

 

[k10ery]

The amazing thing about that document is that all the options (4-6) are so half-assed. We've had a 40 year debate about a DRL, there is a real study actively underway right now, and Metrolinx wades in with a half-assed set of proposals that pretend the DRL should be judged by whether it will allow them to unload people from Whitby faster during the morning rush. It's pretty scary that they wrote this thing up and had the nerve to make it public. If there's anybody left who thinks Metrolinx should take over parts of the TTC (other than Rob Ford) this should make them think twice. They are not interested in transit for Torontonians.

 

[CDL.TO]

Makes me wounder, now that you point out the original plan, knowing that one day the DRL was going to be built they would have know to place the streetcar platform and tunnel somewhere else. Unless they knew the DRL would never become reality?

The only plans for the DRL that I have seen includes the streetcar loop AND the new south platform.

 

[M II A II R II K]

I think 6A is better than 6B as it pertains to the GO lines since it separates the Lakeshore routes to a separate but connected station at 2 different locations closer to the CBD, instead of next to Union but still by the Waterfront. If they have 12 car trains it would probably be one station to the north where the train station pretty much extends from Queen to Osgoode and better to put it under Wellington with underground walkways to the neighbouring stations including Union.

Needless to say there would have to be some kind of eastern DRL subway added as well in addition to all that.

 

[CDL.TO]

The amazing thing about that document is that all the options (4-6) are so half-assed. We've had a 40 year debate about a DRL, there is a real study actively underway right now, and Metrolinx wades in with a half-assed set of proposals that pretend the DRL should be judged by whether it will allow them to unload people from Whitby faster during the morning rush. It's pretty scary that they wrote this thing up and had the nerve to make it public. If there's anybody left who thinks Metrolinx should take over parts of the TTC (other than Rob Ford) this should make them think twice. They are not interested in transit for Torontonians.

Metrolinx is working with the TTC on the Downtown Rapid Transit expansion study.

The whole point of this Metrolinx study is that if the GO system is intended to become a more mature system that is a integrated part of transit for trips within the city of Toronto, then ridership at Union will multiply many times over. There isn't nearly enough capacity, hence the study. If GO continues focussing on nothing more than getting worker bees in from Whitby, then this study would not have been necessary.

TTC looks at options (including the DRL) for relieving the Yonge line.
Metrolinx looks at options (including a DRL) for relieving Union station.
They get together, compare reports, and hopefully develop a design they both agree on.
(The question is... does anyone look at options for relieving the downtown streetcar network?)

 

[Paleo]

And residential people don't use subways. Not sure what you are trying to say but it sounds as if subways need to be built only for people coming downtown to work.

They are even considering a new line because of congestion on the current lines (both subway and streetcar) where too many people are using it to get to work in the mornings. If new expensive infrastructure is built to accommodate secondary or tertiary objectives at the expense of primary objectives, it is a failure in my books.

Front's potential is limited. There will never be anything west of Spadina. 80 home dates a year for the Jays, an auto show, and a few dozen conventions a year doesn't justify inconveniencing the hundreds of thousands for 200+ days per year.

The people on Front can walk north to King Street. It's better than having everyone from north of Front walk south for the sake of having a prettier map with more dots on it.

:The Union station streetcar loop is a perfect example of what happens when you try to pinch pennies.

(The question is... does anyone look at options for relieving the downtown streetcar network?)

DRT along King with similar stop spacing to Yonge downtown would go a long way to accomplishing that goal plus relief.

 

[dunkalunk]

So Paleo, anything against Wellington?

 

[mpd618]

The whole point of this Metrolinx study is that if the GO system is intended to become a more mature system that is a integrated part of transit for trips within the city of Toronto, then ridership at Union will multiply many times over.

This really does not follow. Why would ridership at Union multiply many times over? In a whole-city transport system, not all transit lines go to through a geographically tiny CBD nor is most commuting towards that CBD.

The importance of Union Station to the city is as a transport hub more than as a place with a massive employment area within walking distance. It is a bottleneck in the transit network, but since many people are only going through Union Station to get somewhere else, capacity and the network can be improved by not forcing everyone through Union. A "mature" GO system that cares about mobility within Toronto would not be so heavily focused on Union Station.

 

[Palma]

They are even considering a new line because of congestion on the current lines (both subway and streetcar) where too many people are using it to get to work in the mornings. If new expensive infrastructure is built to accommodate secondary or tertiary objectives at the expense of primary objectives, it is a failure in my books.

Front's potential is limited. There will never be anything west of Spadina. 80 home dates a year for the Jays, an auto show, and a few dozen conventions a year doesn't justify inconveniencing the hundreds of thousands for 200+ days per year.

The people on Front can walk north to King Street. It's better than having everyone from north of Front walk south for the sake of having a prettier map with more dots on it.

:The Union station streetcar loop is a perfect example of what happens when you try to pinch pennies.



DRT along King with similar stop spacing to Yonge downtown would go a long way to accomplishing that goal plus relief.

The DRL maps I saw in the past showed a stop at Spadina and then nothing till Dufferin (Exhibition) before turning north to I think it was Parkdale and then Roncesvalles and then hit the Bloor line. So it does not matter if perhaps there was nothing west of Spadina. The whole point of the DRL is to alleviate traffic along Bloor and Yonge and to get people transferring at other points along Bloor/Danforth to head downtown. In the 90's did anyone think there would be so many people living downtown not living in a single detached or semi. Was it even possible? So to say there will never be anything west of Spadina....Besides there is Ontario Place and the Liberty Village and then the DRL is suppose to head north/west anyways.

 

[CDL.TO]

This really does not follow. Why would ridership at Union multiply many times over? In a whole-city transport system, not all transit lines go to through a geographically tiny CBD nor is most commuting towards that CBD.

The importance of Union Station to the city is as a transport hub more than as a place with a massive employment area within walking distance. It is a bottleneck in the transit network, but since many people are only going through Union Station to get somewhere else, capacity and the network can be improved by not forcing everyone through Union. A "mature" GO system that cares about mobility within Toronto would not be so heavily focused on Union Station.

The existing rail network in the GTA is focussed on Union station, like it or not. We have to work with what we have. North Toronto station exists, but offers limited opportunity for other trains to route there (and adds complications for making transfers between lines).