Downtown congestion pricing system

[MichaelZ]

Please merge if there's a thread already elsewhere.

There's been some talk in the news recently regarding a possible downtown congestion pricing system. So I'm posting this thread for discussions relating to how it could be organized, the expected benefits and drawbacks, pricing, effects on neighbourhood, etc...

To start off, I'd be curious to see what the most optimal area to cover would be, if the decision was made to go ahead.

For example the area bounded by Bathurst, Bloor, Don Valley and the Lake/Portlands might be a sensible area to start off with. Probably Bloor street will have to be included in the initial zone as congestion is already severe. Maybe some signs will be needed on Davenpost and Dupon for streets southbound to let motorists know that the zone is up ahead. Bathurst could be included or act as the border road depending on the severity of congestion.

The actual structure of the collection system could be using a gantry style system like Singapore or pole mounted like London, with license plate reading cameras.

The pricing scheme could start off with rush hour pricing only, i.e. 8am-11am, 3pm-6pm, or some variant, as those are the times most in danger of gridlock.

 

[Northern Light]

Please merge if there's a thread already elsewhere.

There's been some talk in the news recently regarding a possible downtown congestion pricing system. So I'm posting this thread for discussions relating to how it could be organized, the expected benefits and drawbacks, pricing, neighbourhood changes, etc...

To start off, I'd be curious to see what the most optimal area to cover would be, if the decision was made to go ahead.

For example the area bounded by Bathurst, Bloor, Don Valley and the Lake/Portlands might be a sensible area to start off with. Probably Bloor street will have to be included in the initial zone as congestion is already severe. Maybe some signs will be needed on Davenpost and Dupon southbound to let motorists know that the zone is up ahead. Bathurst could be included or act as the border road depending on the severity of congestion.

The actual structure of the collection system could be using a gantry style system like Singapore or pole mounted like London, with license plate reading cameras.

We've had several threads that have touched on this over the years.

The most recent can be found here:

Should Toronto bring in a London-style congestion charge for the downtown area?

Thoughts? It would have to be pretty hefty. But I think it can be done in the area roughly around Bathurst, Don Valley, Davenport/Dupont.

urbantoronto.ca

 

[MichaelZ]

We've had several threads that have touched on this over the years.

The most recent can be found here:

Should Toronto bring in a London-style congestion charge for the downtown area?

Thoughts? It would have to be pretty hefty. But I think it can be done in the area roughly around Bathurst, Don Valley, Davenport/Dupont.

urbantoronto.ca

Thanks, but wow last post 5.5 years ago. Didn't realize it's been that long since it was last brought up.

 

[Northern Light]

Thanks, but wow last post 5.5 years ago. Didn't realize it's been that long since it was last brought up.

That's not really true; that's the last time we had a thread devoted to that subject.

But you'll see it mentioned in the GTA Highway thread, here:

Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

The tolls should be sufficient to keep highways moving. I don't think cutting the 407 tolls so that it is gridlocked is a good idea. Having a moderate toll will still reduce some discretionary trips. Right now, driving is cheaper than GO train. Even a 10 cent/km could change equation in favour...

urbantoronto.ca

(October 2021)

and

Its come up multiple times in the Gardiner Expressway Hybrid thread:

Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

Like many people, I was very disappointed that city council voted against removing the eastern end of the Gardiner Expressway and, instead, voted to rebuild it. It is referred to as the "Hybrid" version. Trouble is, no one really knows what that means. Will the new structure be another concrete...

urbantoronto.ca

There are lots of other threads where it pops up as a tangent.

 

[MichaelZ]

That's not really true; that's the last time we had a thread devoted to that subject.

But you'll see it mentioned in the GTA Highway thread, here:

Roads: Ontario/GTA Highways Discussion

The tolls should be sufficient to keep highways moving. I don't think cutting the 407 tolls so that it is gridlocked is a good idea. Having a moderate toll will still reduce some discretionary trips. Right now, driving is cheaper than GO train. Even a 10 cent/km could change equation in favour...

urbantoronto.ca

(October 2021)

and

Its come up multiple times in the Gardiner Expressway Hybrid thread:

Roads: Gardiner Expressway catch-all, incl. Hybrid Design (2015-onwards)

Like many people, I was very disappointed that city council voted against removing the eastern end of the Gardiner Expressway and, instead, voted to rebuild it. It is referred to as the "Hybrid" version. Trouble is, no one really knows what that means. Will the new structure be another concrete...

urbantoronto.ca

There are lots of other threads where it pops up as a tangent.

Thanks, that is interesting to know, glad to see there's some interested in it.

 

[Dan416]

With how difficult it is to get downtown with GO Transit these days, doesn't seem very fair to implement congestion pricing to get downtown. Fix GO first. At least to pre-pandemic levels, but preferably better. Stop redirecting Milton buses to Port Credit GO. Is there really any reason GO trains on Milton couldn't operate on weekends? How busy is CP on a weekend?

 

[MichaelZ]

With how difficult it is to get downtown with GO Transit these days, doesn't seem very fair to implement congestion pricing to get downtown. Fix GO first. At least to pre-pandemic levels, but preferably better. Stop redirecting Milton buses to Port Credit GO. Is there really any reason GO trains on Milton couldn't operate on weekends? How busy is CP on a weekend?

The rationale for the congestion pricing system rests mostly on its merits. As the revenue from it will be able to offset costs elsewhere, allowing for more transit, housing, parks, etc. If a lot of commuters are forced to enter the zone, because of issues with the GO network, that would mean more funding for transit, housing, parks, etc., which would likely benefit commuters just as much as the fees they pay, and probably even more if they live within Toronto. In this sense, even in the extreme case that the GO network stops tomorrow, its main purpose will then serve as a tax on activities generating negative externalities and fund activities generating positive externalities.

 

[Dan416]

I get that. But fix GO first.

 

[MichaelZ]

I get that. But fix GO first.

I edited my comment a bit so I will highlight it here:
In this sense, even in the extreme case that the GO network stops tomorrow, its main purpose will then serve as a tax on activities generating negative externalities and fund activities generating positive externalities.

So whether or not Metrolinx even exists is irrelevant for this purpose. Of course in more realistic scenarios, other purposes may be enhanced or degraded by relative volumes of transit capacity.

 

[Northern Light]

With how difficult it is to get downtown with GO Transit these days, doesn't seem very fair to implement congestion pricing to get downtown.

To the extent that congestion charging achieved one of its two primary objectives; that of reducing congestion, it would achieve your goal of lessening traffic enough that GO buses would again be see plying the streets around Union Station.

The other goal of said charge, as noted by @MichaelZ above being the raising of revenue to support capital expansion of; and more frequent public transit.

Fix GO first. At least to pre-pandemic levels, but preferably better. Stop redirecting Milton buses to Port Credit GO.

A) see above

B) A congestion charge cannot be implemented overnight, there's no infrastructure in place for it; if Council took the decision to do so; and the province allowed it; it would take a minimum of 2 years to put it in place. GO will be operating record levels of service by then. (November 2024, since November is the next regular meeting of Council)

Is there really any reason GO trains on Milton couldn't operate on weekends? How busy is CP on a weekend?

There is some room on the corridor for limited weekend service, IF CP agrees to it, and GO budgets to pay for it.

Large scale improvements on this corridor will require investments, likely in the range of 1B.

 

[just east of the creek]

Could we define or discuss a negative externality?

I agree with tolling and congestion charges to a point. But fix GO first. And tell me that these revenues are funding transit. Then let’s do it with a system that rewards off-peak, recognizes services and commercial activities, and recognizes that surface transit needs priority, and people transit (foot and bike) require safe access to the streets.

As a former resident, worker and now employer of and in the city, I often feel I should get a vote as well, or perhaps half a vote, in city affairs. I work in the city, consume, spend and use, and am responsible, along with how many others transiting from the GTA, for much of how Toronto looks and works.

I am very sure I am not a negative externality.

 

[afransen]

To the extent that congestion charging achieved one of its two primary objectives; that of reducing congestion, it would achieve your goal of lessening traffic enough that GO buses would again be see plying the streets around Union Station.

Same goes for tolling highways. If highways were tolled to be largely free flowing at peak, GO buses could be quite effective.

 

[afransen]

Large scale improvements on this corridor will require investments, likely in the range of 1B.

If York region can get not one but two $10B subway extensions, I think we could spring to upgrade the Milton line to serve Mississauga.

 

[T3G]

How busy is CP on a weekend?

The Galt subdivision is very lightly used at all times, last I checked there were only 4 or 5 daily scheduled trains, but the line is owned by Canadian Pacific, and they have refused to let GO expand the scope of Milton line service without expansion of the tracks. I have no idea why they are being so stubborn about this, seeing as they themselves refuse to make reasonable use of the corridor, but there it is.

Welcome to North America!

 

[Northern Light]

If York region can get not one but two $10B subway extensions, I think we could spring to upgrade the Milton line to serve Mississauga.

There's no question that it can be done, and none that it should either. I was simply noting that substantial service increases on that line, on weekdays could not be affected without infrastructure improvements and a bit of a time lag. (in answer to a question)