Despite what Ford says The Streetcar in Toronto is here to stay.

[gweed123]

Another flawed assumption we see too often, what makes you think EVERY passenger on that streetcar owns a car?

No, but the majority do. Assume 60% on the streetcar do. That means 60/100 people. Assume 1.2 passengers per vehicle during rush hour. So that means that every streetcar takes 50 cars off the road during rush hour. What do you think will have a larger impact on traffic flow? 1 streetcar, or 50 cars?

 

[Asterix]

I agree the streetcar is a more efficient use of road space but is very slow and dictates the pace of traffic. My point was that it is the streetcar that causes congestion, not the automobiles as is the common perception.

Which street car line is responsible for the congestion on Yonge? Bloor? Bay? Eglinton? DVP? Gardiner?

I'm sure it is all the fault of the 501.

 

[CDL.TO]

I agree the streetcar is a more efficient use of road space but is very slow and dictates the pace of traffic. My point was that it is the streetcar that causes congestion, not the automobiles as is the common perception. You posted about a half hour after my comments so obviously you did not take the suggested test.

I did your test. I took the Queen car into work today. Almost all of the time we were delayed there were cars both in front and behind us. We were caught behind cars at Pape, Carlaw, Broadview, River, Parliament, Jarvis, Church, Victoria, and Bay. Left turning vehicles were the leading cause, followed by general congestion. Also, the streetcar was absolutely packed and was easily carrying well over 100 people.

Based on my experience and perspective as a streetcar rider, private vehicles were the leading cause of congestion and I would have gotten into work much faster if they had not been on the road. At no time were we ever caught behind another streetcar.

Also, I usually bike in to work. Eastern is usually backed up with traffic from Logan to Pape, even though there are no streetcars on that street.

It seems clear to me that the leading cause of congestion is more vehicles on the road than there is free-flowing capacity. I know; it's a shocking conclusion.

 

[gweed123]

It seems clear to me that the leading cause of congestion is more vehicles on the road than there is free-flowing capacity. I know; it's a shocking conclusion.

This just in: cars cause congestion!... Having said that, maybe someone should forward this earth-shattering discovery onto Jabba the Ford's campaign. It could use a good jolt to get out of the 1950s.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Actually, a slight correction - other cars cause congestion, I, as THE driver and the sole legal user of all the roads, is faultless.

AoD

 

[nfitz]

This just in: cars cause congestion!

And the solution is to get the cars off the road. By offering good transit (and that includes getting the cars out of the way of the streetcars), there will be less cars on the road, and less congestion.

I always fail to understand why most drivers don't support a lot more transit and even road tolls. It would make their drive a lot easier, with less congestion.

The worst traffic I see in the GTA is no where near streetcars. Highway 7 in Markham; Bayview ... pretty much anywhere north of Eglinton all the way to 407. Brittania. The Gardiner, the DVP. Eglinton ... (not streetcars there yet!).

Ironically, I don't find driving downtown as bad as some places in the suburbs. Downtown the congested area is relatively small (I confess I drive in from the east side, and not the west side, which does appear to have a lot more problems.

Quite frankly, I don't understand why there is many cars on either King or Queen between Jarvis and Bathurst. Anytime I'm down there, Richmond and Adelaide are so faster roads to drive on. As a driver, I just I don't get why anyone would drive along those roads for more than a block or two.

 

[spider]

Originally Posted by spider
Another flawed assumption we see too often, what makes you think EVERY passenger on that streetcar owns a car?

No, but the majority do.

Assume 60% on the streetcar do. That means 60/100 people. Assume 1.2 passengers per vehicle during rush hour. So that means that every streetcar takes 50 cars off the road during rush hour. What do you think will have a larger impact on traffic flow? 1 streetcar, or 50 cars?

Deja Vu strikes again.
Assume 60%? Why not 95% or2%? Your assumptions or anyone else's are interesting but not good enough to justify any solution to the congestion problem.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

spider:

I would suggest you review CDL's retort to your experiment before talking more about "congestion". For someone challenging the assumption of others (and fine assumptions they are), you certainly didn't pay much attention to actual observations.

AoD

 

[Torontovibe]

The Streetcar is not going anywhere.

I hope you're right because I use public transit every now and then, and I hate taking buses. It's subways and streetcars for me. I avoid buses as best I can.

 

[Earlscourt_Lad]

Which street car line is responsible for the congestion on Yonge? Bloor? Bay? Eglinton? DVP? Gardiner?

I'm sure it is all the fault of the 501.

Everyone knows it's the 512. Sheeeesh.

 

[W. K. Lis]

...
The only major drawback of streetcars is that they can't go around blockages on the rails. However, I think this fact is overblown because if there's any kind of accident or incident on a downtown street like King or Queen you're going to end up with gridlock quite quickly, and buses wouldn't be going anywhere either.

... http://transit.toronto.on.ca/archives/weblog/2010/09/09-editorial_.shtml

What about blockages on the heavy rail subway? Some causes: doors held open, suicides, fires, people falling onto tracks, illness, breakdowns, etc. Same problems as streetcars, in some instances. Can't go around disabled heavy rail trains either.

The HRVs that are breaking down are about the same age as the streetcars, which is why they are to be retired and replaced by the new Toronto Rocket trains. The same reason for the getting new streetcars. Try to find buses the same age. In fact, why do I always constantly seem to see disabled buses all around Toronto, if they are younger?

 

[cacruden]

Taking streetcars off the road and replacing them with buses - will not have 60% moving to their cars. People ride streetcars because either they do not have a car, or if they do, cannot afford to drive them into the downtown, or share the car with a significant other. People with cars, that can afford parking, and can use them - might be convinced to leave the car for "rapid" transit. Streetcars as implemented in Toronto are anything but. I like the suggestion of banning left hand turns, if that was implemented - with a public transit right of way (cars not getting in the way) and having control of signals - then Toronto might be able to implement a surface based rapid alternative. I still prefer it to be underground or above - I just don't like standing outside in the Winter - and now I don't

 

[Dan416]

Taking streetcars off the road and replacing them with buses - will not have 60% moving to their cars. People ride streetcars because either they do not have a car, or if they do, cannot afford to drive them into the downtown, or share the car with a significant other. People with cars, that can afford parking, and can use them - might be convinced to leave the car for "rapid" transit. Streetcars as implemented in Toronto are anything but. I like the suggestion of banning left hand turns, if that was implemented - with a public transit right of way (cars not getting in the way) and having control of signals - then Toronto might be able to implement a surface based rapid alternative. I still prefer it to be underground or above - I just don't like standing outside in the Winter - and now I don't

I agree with you 100%. I think we should do everything we can to make our existing streetcars run faster. To sum up I think we should:

1. As above, ban left turns where they might block a streetcar
2. Cut down the number of stops
3. Give green light priority to streetcars where possible (probably won't do much at rush hour)
4. Declare all streetcar tracks (aside from intersections) their own ROW. Yeah, that'll leave only one lane on some streets. But drivers will have to adapt. Maybe when they see streetcars whizzing by it'll convince them to seek out alternatives (cycling, carpooling, GO transit)

It might not be popular with drivers, but I would make it part of SOS's platform because I think it's extremely important.

 

[ssiguy2]

Ford won't get rid of the streetcars........it's just a promise to get the suburban vote. I think his concern is to make sure no new streetcar routes are built ie TransitCity. No great loss there.
What I can see him doing is not authorizing any repairs needed to the lines themselves resulting in the stoppage of the line and he simply won't rebuild the route.
St.Clair has put the fear of god into many a Torontonian and with good reason considering how over budget it was and WAY behind schedule. It doesn't want a series of St.Clairs all over the city and I can understand that. It was a City Hall and TTC determination, its not like the businesses and residents were screaming for it. He uses it as example of how City Hall shoves initatives down the area throat like TC.

 

[Asterix]

I think his concern is to make sure no new streetcar routes are built ie TransitCity. No great loss there.

If you call $3 billion from the province for capital transit projects 'no great loss', then yes, you might be correct. The province has recently affirmed that the money is for Transit City, not for some new mayor to transfer to their own pet project.

What I can see him doing is not authorizing any repairs needed to the lines themselves resulting in the stoppage of the line and he simply won't rebuild the route.

Which routes will need to be rebuilt within his term of office? Almost all have been done in the last decade or so and they last for quite a while before needing a rebuild/track replacement.

St.Clair has put the fear of god into many a Torontonian and with good reason considering how over budget it was and WAY behind schedule.

The problems with St Clair were management and political, not operational. It was afflicted by a schedule delaying lawsuit (=more money), adding on extra aspects (street beautification not directly related to the streetcar line) and trying to coordinate other work not directly related to the streetcar line by various utilities (Hydro, water, etc).

Perhaps as a private businessman, getting all the various parties on the same page and implementing a smooth construction and management plan is just the sort of task Rob Ford should undertake. Show how his wealth of private sector experience can make such a project a model for all future city capital projects.

It was a City Hall and TTC determination, its not like the businesses and residents were screaming for it.

I don't suppose you've ridden on the new St Clair line and noticed how it is an improved trip? I don't suppose you've heard from many previous skeptics and critics who now say that once completed and operational, it actually is pretty good?