Decreased Travel and Wait Times Key to Improving Public Transit

[doady]

doady,

What point are you trying to make? What is Miller doing right? In our own past, with a smaller population we had higher transit ridership than we do today. For a lot less money to boot.

It was a joke. ITcomputer was the one who claimed Toronto's transit system pales in comparison to the rest of Canada, and that it was the fault of David Miller.

When did Miller come to power? The stats posted are 8 years old.

Do you actually think there will be a difference in newer stats? I posted these simply because I had them on my computer. You can check the Statcan site for more recent stats if you want.

Besides: does this prove that the TTC is fantastic, or our roads are the worst in North America?

Of course as a right-winger, you blame it on roads. How typical. Buses use the roads as well, and if you really think roads in Toronto are worse than in Montreal, Vancouver, Winnipeg, etc. think again. Toronto has much more highways than any other CMA.

It seems to me the harshest critics of the system in this thread are right-wingers like you who would never use the system anyway. So your opinion does not count.

 

[Dichotomy]

It was a joke. ITcomputer was the one who claimed Toronto's transit system pales in comparison to the rest of Canada, and that it was the fault of David Miller.



Do you actually think there will be a difference in newer stats? I posted these simply because I had them on my computer. You can check the Statcan site for more recent stats if you want.



Of course as a right-winger, you blame it on roads. How typical. Buses use the roads as well, and if you really think roads in Toronto are worse than in Montreal, Vancouver, Winnipeg, etc. think again. Toronto has much more highways than any other CMA.

It seems to me the harshest critics of the system in this thread are right-wingers like you who would never use the system anyway. So your opinion does not count.

Right winger? That's a laugh. Just because I have a car and actually use it does not qualify me as a 'right winger.'

My partner uses the system every day and it sucks. All he does is bitch about it. Plus, I can drive him to work in 30 minutes (downtown to Jane/Sheppard) in what takes him at least an hour, but he must allow for 75 minutes - in case the subway is down or he misses his connection for the Sheppard bus at Downsview. He prefers to 'save money.' My time is worth more than the few hundred a month my car costs me.

Toronto's roads are the worst in North America. A few years ago, the 401 surpassed the Santa Monica Freeway as the most heavily travelled highway in North America: an outstanding acheivement for a city half the size of L.A. As I've stated on other threads, Toronto may have 5 highways (and only one of those is more than 6 lanes), plus the Allen stump, but it has NO decent arterial roads. GoogleEarth is a great tool. I counted 5, 6-lane arterial routes out of downtown Vancouver. Toronto has 3 (4, if you count the Avenue Rd. stump that goes as far as St. Clair.)

Personally, I would crow about TTC ridership if it was a) growing, and b) the preferred method of transit, not the default. Choking off our roads to force people into the Tiny Tin Can is hardly a recipe for a future city, IMO.

Just remember that when you chime off about the DVP, Gardiner or Spadina extension: your opinion doesn't count.

 

[urbanboom]

^

Oh God, do you really want to start that debate again? Your views are already well known (since you state them every other post). Must we make an other "us vs. them" thread?

And about your opinion doesn't count whining, his/her opinion does count, just as much as yours does. That's what I love about democracy, one opinion, one voice, one vote. No amount of complaining on cyberspace will change that.

And if Toronto truly want to go down the path that you think it should, it would've happend a long time ago. But it didn't. Toronto chose it's own path. It chose to not follow in Detroit's or Cleveland's or any other city of similar roots's path. We chose to not complete the Allen. We chose to be transit-centric.

If Torontonians wanted to do the things you propose, it would happen. But it isn't. Dichotomy, you seem to live in the wrong city. I can only imagine what keeps you here, since you do little to hide your loathing for this city.

 

[afransen]

35km at highway speeds in less than 30 minutes by subway? It's just not going to happen. Thar's GO for them thar trips.

I'm not convinced GO could pull it off effectively (increase reliability, capacity and speed on Eglinton).

Please note that what I'm suggesting doesn't necessarily need to be tunneled, just grade separated.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'm not convinced GO could pull it off effectively (increase reliability, capacity and speed on Eglinton).

Please note that what I'm suggesting doesn't necessarily need to be tunneled, just grade separated.

I never mentioned a tunnel. There's no way to get from STC to the airport in less than 30 minutes unless the vehicle travels about 80km/hr and never stops (this includes a GO train). Building an express *anything* along Eglinton for the sake of crosstown travel when the Midtown GO line sits as yet unused would be a colossal boondoggle. Eglinton as our crosstown saviour has always been a bit of a ridiculous sentiment...for starters, the Bloor/Danforth line already goes across the city, the Sheppard line should go much farther across the city, and there's nothing at all on Eglinton between Yonge and the airport (which can be accessed just as easily by a line from Kipling or the Georgetown GO line).

 

[Davidson]

US and Canadian metropolitan areas by % of people using transit to get to work - 2000 and 2001

New York - 24.9%
Toronto - 22.4
Montreal - 21.7
Ottawa-Gatineau - 18.5
Winnipeg - 14.2
Calgary - 13.1
Chicago - 11.5
Vancouver - 11.5
Halifax - 9.9
Quebec - 9.8
Victoria - 9.7
San Francisco - 9.5
Washington-Baltimore - 9.4
Boston - 9.0
Philadelphia - 8.7
Edmonton - 8.6
Hamilton - 7.9
Oshawa - 7.1
Seattle - 6.8
Pittsburgh - 6.2
London - 6.0
Portland - 5.7
Los Angeles - 4.7
Minneapolis-St. Paul - 4.6
Regina - 4.4
Denver - 4.3
Las Vegas - 4.1
Saskatoon - 4.1
Milwalkee - 4.0
Kitchener - 3.9
Miami - 3.9
Atlanta - 3.7
Buffalo - 3.5
Cleveland - 3.4
San Diego - 3.4
Houston - 3.3
Cincinatti - 3.1
Windsor - 3.1
Salt Lake City - 3.0
Sacramento - 2.7
Austin - 2.6
Providence 2.5
St. Louis - 2.4
Louisville - 2.2
St. Catharines-Niagara - 2.0
Phoenix - 2.0
Rochester - 1.9
Detroit - 1.8
Dallas-Fort Worth - 1.8
Orlando - 1.7
Raleigh-Durham - 1.7
Indianapolis - 1.3
Kansas City - 1.3
Nashville - 1.0

Anyone else? Bring it.

Doady, good post. I like numbers. Do you have the statistics for European cities too, especially cities with population and density levels similar to Toronto? What are the numbers for Berlin and Madrid? Just curious.

Besides New York, San Francisco, Chicago, Montreal, and Boston, the cities in this list are not world-class.

 

[nfitz]

The streetcar should not have worse headways than the bus on the weekend.

Agreed - however the Kingston Road service is quite unique. This very odd arrangement has existed for years. It's not typical of TTC scheduling. And yes, it needs fixing.

 

[toraerach]

Except that we now have more people who live in the 905 than before and they live for the automobile. They use the car to get milk or a lottery ticket, while those in the 416 walk.

Because the 905ers use the car for just about everything in the 905, they will continue to drive when they go into the 416, and therefore add to the traffic congestion in the 416. Putting more of the 416 transit on any kind of right-of-way, will segregate the 416 transit users from the 905 motorist. This will result in faster transit, while leaving the 905 alone in their cars.

I think this 416/905 stuff needs to stop if we want to get anywhere. Sure, it's a lot harder to rely on transit in the suburbs, but many people do. Similarly, there are a lot of people in the 416 that rely solely on cars. There are some parts of the 416 that look a lot more suburban than some parts of the 905. It's really about which neighbourhood you live in and how it was planned. A maze of cul-de-sacs in Etobicoke is the same barrier to transit, pedestrians, cyclists, etc. as it is in the 905. If you lived in a more established neighbourhood in the 905 (maybe a former village or an older area with grid planning) transit, walking and cycling become easier.

Almost all the people I know in Mississauga use MT everyday. Some people I know in the 416 never take transit except for special events. It's not about which side of the 416/905 border you live on but on how easily accessible transit is. I know it's anecdotal, but at least you know more than a few people in the land where car is king have left their driving days behind them (if they ever learnt how to drive in the first place).

The Town of Oakville, for example, is starting to develop the land North of Dundas. I believe part of the official plan is to set the roads out so that everyone lives within a walking distance of a bus stop and that those buses do not have wind through side streets but stay on the main street at the same time. For Oakville that is a lot. We'll see if it works out.

 

[androiduk]

I don't think the 'wait time' is the real problem here, I think the problem is you don't know when or if the bus is coming. With existing technology (satellite tracking/GPS) we could have smart stops (supported by advertising) that show how long before the next bus arrives and the same info available on your computer or cell phone. I believe I saw something in the news yesterday that the TTC will start letting people know when the next subway will be arriving.

 

[W. K. Lis]

I don't think the 'wait time' is the real problem here, I think the problem is you don't know when or if the bus is coming. With existing technology (satellite tracking/GPS) we could have smart stops (supported by advertising) that show how long before the next bus arrives and the same info available on your computer or cell phone. I believe I saw something in the news yesterday that the TTC will start letting people know when the next subway will be arriving.

I agree, but I would like to know when the next 3 vehicles will arrive so that I can make plans to get on the next vehicle, have a coffee, shop, or take a taxi based on that information.

 

[Anth]

I think this 416/905 stuff needs to stop if we want to get anywhere. Sure, it's a lot harder to rely on transit in the suburbs, but many people do. Similarly, there are a lot of people in the 416 that rely solely on cars. There are some parts of the 416 that look a lot more suburban than some parts of the 905. It's really about which neighbourhood you live in and how it was planned. A maze of cul-de-sacs in Etobicoke is the same barrier to transit, pedestrians, cyclists, etc. as it is in the 905. If you lived in a more established neighbourhood in the 905 (maybe a former village or an older area with grid planning) transit, walking and cycling become easier.

Almost all the people I know in Mississauga use MT everyday. Some people I know in the 416 never take transit except for special events. It's not about which side of the 416/905 border you live on but on how easily accessible transit is. I know it's anecdotal, but at least you know more than a few people in the land where car is king have left their driving days behind them (if they ever learnt how to drive in the first place).

Well said. There are plenty of 416 suburbanites and 905 urbanites out there and the distinction has even less meaning today than it had in the 90s.

 

[TrickyRicky]

The title of the thread is basically just stating the obvious. People respond to incentives and will act in a manner they believe to be in their best interests. It's as simple as that. Many transit enthusiasts believe deeply in transit for altruistic reasons but really transit usage is a referendum on convenience. There are some people for which transit is an economic necessity, but for the vast majority of people transit is a sufficiently small portion of their budget that time is of the essence. As an inner city resident I can confess that the only transit mode that is of use to me is the subway system because of it's speed and convenience for medium distance trips. Short distance trips are far more conveniently made by foot or bike, long-distance by car (owned, rented, hailed or shared).

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Because the 905ers use the car for just about everything in the 905, they will continue to drive when they go into the 416, and therefore add to the traffic congestion in the 416. Putting more of the 416 transit on any kind of right-of-way, will segregate the 416 transit users from the 905 motorist. This will result in faster transit, while leaving the 905 alone in their cars.

What a ridiculous comment. I grew up near Bayview and Steeles but I won't tell you which side lest you to jump to conclusions about my attitude towards the automobile.

Oh, and when I was growing up there was no 905/416 - we all had the same area code. This makes it a bit hard to nail down just when our radically divergent feelings about transportation came into being.

We're all just people, dude. I live north of Steeles now and if it makes sense for me take a subway to, say, the ACC instead of driving, I'll do it. Shocking, I know but others feel the same!! Sometimes I walk places too! Or bike!
Can you dig it?!

Anyone who thinks denying the suburbs rapid transit is a solution to "gridlock" frankly shouldn't even be allowed to have a driver's license, much less be allowed to post on a transportation board.

I would like to know when the next 3 vehicles will arrive so that I can make plans to get on the next vehicle, have a coffee, shop, or take a taxi based on that information.

Why not 5 vehicles? Why not have the TTC commissioner personally call you on your cell phone to let you know the best coffee to shop to go to you can maximize your coffee/newspaper/transportation options?

It's PUBLIC transit, not CUSTOM transit for you and/or your neighbourhood. I don't think you understand the principles under which this system is supposed to operate.

Something is happening, but you don't know what it is, do you, WK Lis?

 

[DavidH]

It's not about which side of the 416/905 border you live on but on how easily accessible transit is.

Well said. It's amazing that anyone could claim otherwise when the Yonge subway is at capacity because of trips beginning in 905; GO trains are full from 905 to downtown every weekday, and even an embryonic system like DRT has recorded a 20% increase in ridership since the beginning of the year.

Obviously, there are some 905ers who are wedded to their car and would not switch for anything, but that is equally so in Toronto - although I'm more than prepared to grant that the ratio of such people is higher in 905.

The core issue is providing a transit service that is cost-comparable with car travel (preferably less expensive, which is certainly true of the downtown-oriented services I'm mentioned once one factors in parking downtown) and travel time (again true for downtown trips). Waiting time can be a factor as well as overall convenience issues (car: can make stop offs along way; transit: can read or sleep instead of driving), but those are addons to the core issues of service availability, speed, and cost. People will wait (but only to a point) for the right service, and making the wrong service frequent will accomplish little.

The problem is that we have all too few of the right services. Crowded local transit on city streets is NOT attractive to anyone can afford a car and is not committed to the idea of using transit. In 905, local service is all too often a joke - my local route in Ajax runs every half hour during rush hour, and that's it. Off peak, I either have a thirty minute walk to another route or (evenings and Sundays) I retain local service on my street in the form of a circuitous "combined" route (e.g. three routes lumped together) operating on an hourly schedule that is unattractive for anyone who has a choice.

So we need a mixture of things - better long distance and medium distance services (and the GO REX proposes that Metrolinx has been talking about, and which appear to be coming to the RTP in the form of 15-minute service freuqencies) will be very important) as well as substantially improved local service. We need to treat the rider as a customer to be attracted, not as someone that we have to provide the cheapest possible service for. And yes, the services need to be on dedicated ROWs/lanes as much as possible, and the service frequencies need to be better.

We need a lot of things, in short - and it's going to take time to get all of them. With luck, we can at least make a start on it and hope that gas prices continue to keep pressure on our politicians.

 

[Dichotomy]

These discussions always degenerate into an 'us-versus-them' argument. Regardless of which side you are on, there is no denying that the infrastructure, whether it be roads, sewers or subways, has been woefully neglected in this city for the past 25 years.
Look at what was accomplished from '53 to '77 in terms of subways: the entire Bloor-Danforth line, the Spadina line and most of the Yonge line (was it Davisville or Eglinton it stopped at originally?) What has the city built since then, yet the population around the city has quadrupled!
There is so much money in this city, yet it is starved of resources.

I think that it is safe to assume that most people who bother to post on UT are reasonably intelligent and more concerned about their community than the average person, yet we cannot seem to reach any kind of consensus. That is what I find depressing.

It's either the car OR transit. Those are the choices. I don't accept that.