Debate on the merits of the Scarborough Subway Extension

[Streety McCarface]

Based on city stats, of transit trips that being in Scarborough:

48% end in Scarborough
23% end downtown
24% end somewhere else in Toronto
5% end outside Toronto

The Eglinton East extension would offer terrific rapid transit access for trips in Scarborough, along with a transfer free connection to the Yonge Line (or one transfer onto the subway). A second LRT or looped system to the STC would basically connect everyone to the Yonge Line, without a transfer.

Kennedy, Victoria Park, Warden, and potentially Lawrence East also exist in Scarborough. It's also worth noting that many of those inter "Scarborough" trips are not commuting trips, rather trips to get groceries, run errands, and other aspects of daily life. Finally, when you consider that "somewhere else in Toronto" accounts for the subway system (and eventually the Eglinton line) outside of Line 1: Spadina-Bloor Yonge, and Line 2: Bathurst to Sherbourne, subway access can be really attributed to around 45% of all trips originating in Scarborough. The only thing the "downtown trips are not significant for Scarborough" argument makes is for a case against RER, which will only serve downtown Toronto.

 

[Leo_Chan]

I don’t know about other people, but assuming the high end for the Sheppard East LRT and Eglinton East LRT at $2B+ each, the SLRT at $3B and SSE at $5B, it would seem much more more appropriate to spend $7B on 3 projects instead of spending $5B on 1 project.

 

[syn]

Kennedy, Victoria Park, Warden, and potentially Lawrence East also exist in Scarborough. It's also worth noting that many of those inter "Scarborough" trips are not commuting trips, rather trips to get groceries, run errands, and other aspects of daily life. Finally, when you consider that "somewhere else in Toronto" accounts for the subway system (and eventually the Eglinton line) outside of Line 1: Spadina-Bloor Yonge, and Line 2: Bathurst to Sherbourne, subway access can be really attributed to around 45% of all trips originating in Scarborough. The only thing the "downtown trips are not significant for Scarborough" argument makes is for a case against RER, which will only serve downtown Toronto.

Yes, and how does a one stop SSE with a giant bus terminal help those commuters?

It doesn't.

An LRT network would accommodate those who travel within Scarborough and connects to the Yonge Line. If someone wants to use the Bloor Line, they can transfer.

Kind of like everyone else in the city who uses transit.

 

[syn]

I don’t know about other people, but assuming the high end for the Sheppard East LRT and Eglinton East LRT at $2B+ each, the SLRT at $3B and SSE at $5B, it would seem much more more appropriate to spend $7B on 3 projects instead of spending $5B on 1 project.

It's a far better use of money, providing Rapid Transit access to a much greater number of people.

 

[micheal_can]

Besides a Subway to STC, are there other options that would actually be a good idea?

 

[Streety McCarface]

Besides a Subway to STC, are there other options that would actually be a good idea?

If someone here has better GIS maps, data, and skills than I do, one could possibly look at all the bus routes and the ridership and density around each stop and calculate the best locations to put subway stops and route buses into. Of course, no one here has access to that sort of data.

 

[micheal_can]

If someone here has better GIS maps, data, and skills than I do, one could possibly look at all the bus routes and the ridership and density around each stop and calculate the best locations to put subway stops and route buses into. Of course, no one here has access to that sort of data.

So, people are just talking out their asses? Good to know.

 

[Rainforest]

I don’t know about other people, but assuming the high end for the Sheppard East LRT and Eglinton East LRT at $2B+ each, the SLRT at $3B and SSE at $5B, it would seem much more more appropriate to spend $7B on 3 projects instead of spending $5B on 1 project.

Your estimates sound reasonable.

But I don't see a mechanism for giving up $5B allocated for SSE and getting $7B for other projects in exchange.

 

[Rainforest]

How many of the TTC-proposed light rail lines would serve Steeles East in Scarborough? Zero.

Finch East? At this point, zero as well. Ideas of extending Finch LRT east of Yonge are debated by transit watchers, but TTC didn't draw any plans that would see light rail service on Finch East in Scarborough.

Lawrence East? I guess riders coming from east of Kingston Rd may choose to transfer from the bus to EE LRT, and get to Kennedy Stn faster. But the majority of Lawrence East riders, who board west of the Kingston intersection, would still use buses to go west and will not be helped by EE LRT.

While it is true that trips making use of the subway connection represent less than 50% of all transit trips in Scarborough, it still the single largest group of trips that can be significantly improved with one particular project.

Trips within Scarborough are very diverse, and no single line or even 2 or 3 local lines can help a large % of them.

There is no doubt that replacing local buses with street-median light rail improves the transit experience of riders who live or work near that route. But, only those riders, and that's a tiny portion of all transit trips in Scarborough.

Thus the attitude of the local elected officials towards projects like EE LRT isn't surprising at all. They are willing to take it if the city offers. But they aren't going out of their way and aren't pushing hard to make it happen.

While the subway extension has firm support of nearly all elected MPs, MPPs, and Councillors.

 

[JSF-1]

It would be really difficult to build a surface level LRT on Finch East considering after Victoria Park it becomes a 4 lane road, and I don't see the city reducing it to 1 lane in each direction. As for Lawrence East, believe me as someone who lives on Lawrence it doesn't need an LRT, what it needs is better bus service. It is absolutely insane to see the state the 54 is in when it carries as many people as it does. Seeing something like 5 buses bunched together is a daily occurrence as is having to wait upwards of 20 minutes to half an hour. This is a known problem to but nothing has been done about it. If I'm not mistaken Steve Munroe did a piece on it back in like 2011 or 2012 and I am not lying when I say it has gotten worse. I don't know what is that is wrong with the 54 but something needs to be done. I personally believe part of the problem is the route is just to long, it can't be operated efficiently at the service demanded of it; however the question becomes if we split it, where do we split it?

 

[Sakraycore]

Your estimates sound reasonable.

But I don't see a mechanism for giving up $5B allocated for SSE and getting $7B for other projects in exchange.

Not to mention all those lines seem pretty hypothetical. For example, I mean Sheppard east LRT is the project that would directly benefit me the most, but one would have to be crazy to think it still has a chance to happen. I mean it should have happened 10 years ago, now it's as good as dead. Let's move on and push for SSE then sheppard east subway extension which is way more likely to happen.

 

[syn]

Not to mention all those lines seem pretty hypothetical. For example, I mean Sheppard east LRT is the project that would directly benefit me the most, but one would have to be crazy to think it still has a chance to happen. I mean it should have happened 10 years ago, now it's as good as dead. Let's move on and push for SSE then sheppard east subway extension which is way more likely to happen.

The DRL should've happened many decades ago, I guess we should've given up on it by now?

 

[OneCity]

The DRL should've happened many decades ago, I guess we should've given up on it by now?

Big difference one plan is supported by the majority of residents who live in the area, the other plan is not. The only ones who might try to keep it alive are likely going to be a handful councillors mainly from outside Scarborough

 

[Rainforest]

Not to mention all those lines seem pretty hypothetical. For example, I mean Sheppard east LRT is the project that would directly benefit me the most, but one would have to be crazy to think it still has a chance to happen. I mean it should have happened 10 years ago, now it's as good as dead. Let's move on and push for SSE then sheppard east subway extension which is way more likely to happen.

I think it is more realistic to aim for something "half-way between" a subway and an LRT on Sheppard. The demand in that corridor is lower than for SSE, thus the city is unlikely to pay for a subway extension on Sheppard.

On the other hand, the light rail plan in its current form is unpopular because it perpetuates the transfer at Don Mills.

Maybe, a viable solution is a high-floor LRT that can fit in the existing Sheppard tunnel easily, runs with 3-car trains for capacity, has relatively wide stop spacing, but still cuts the cost by running in the street median between Vic Park and Midland. And then, in a tunnel from Midland & Sheppard to STC.

That kind of line could be extended further east from STC (to Malvern?), and west of Yonge, for less than a full subway.

 

[JSF-1]

I can't really see that happening since this would introduce a new LRV fleet into the system and could end the possibility of the Sheppard LRT and EELRT sharing a yard. As well Ontario and Toronto have this belief that everything must be Low-Floor. The EC and FW LRT's didn't have to be Low-Floor but here we are. Hell I don't even think High-Level LRT's were ever considered an option for those lines.