Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[BurlOak]

Riders who get on at Kipling station deserve a transfer free ride to Union!

Riders who get on at Kipling station deserve a transfer free ride to Yonge/Bloor or St. George. They hate that they have to change trains at Islington.

Oh, that's right, there is no transfer at Islington. Just like no reasonable plan would force a transfer at Kennedy.

Since "Scarborough deserves a subway" and deserve a "transfer-free" solution, would a SLRT that goes along the "approved corridor" but continues down Kennedy to Kingston and goes towards downtown and connects to the Waterfront LRT work? Of course, this line would be grade separated (elevated) along these corridors. This is just a scenario I would like opinion on. This allows a "transfer-free" ride downtown and has the speed of a subway. I'm not proposing this to replace the SSE or EELRT in any way in the current "approved plan", just a "what if" it was proposed earlier.

I don't think anyone would complain about this, provided:

• It is grade-separated for speed and reliability.
• it has the required capacity, which I would suspect would be in the 20-30 ppdph range.
• It does not include the walking transfer from Queen's Quay to Union. Overloading Union is almost as bad as overloading Yonge-Bloor, so ideally it would go somewhat north of that.

PS. It actually is a replacement for the SSE. The $4B would go a long way towards paying for this.
PPS. Following Eastern and crossing the Don Valley, I made it follow Front/Welllington.

 

[Hopkins123]

That's the Scarborough Subway Psychosis in a nutshell!

"We deserve respect!!!"

"We deserve subways subways subways!!"

What about people at Finch and Bathurst??

What about people at Lakeshore and Islington?

What about people at Don Mills and Bayview?

Don't they deserve respect?

Don't they deserve a gold-plated Subway right up to their front doors?

What's so special about people in Scarborough, or East York, or Etobicoke, or North York, or Downtown, that they "DESERVE" subways???

The answer is -----> Nobody deserves ANYTHING more than a mass transit mode that matches the DENSITY AND RIDERSHIP in their neighbourhood.

The DENSITY AND RIDERSHIP in Scarborough was, is, and will continue to be, well suited to LRT lines.

Why is this so hard to understand?

Speaking of density and ridership...

That's Scarborough Centre within a decade or so's time.

With Downtown Toronto-like densities such as this and the air rights taken up by the new developments, where's an elevated toy train to go? Better to go underground and by that point there is little, if any, cost difference between using LRT or heavy rail subway technology (subways may in fact be cheaper as a LRT tunnel needs that wider diameter for the overhead wires). Psychosis, I know.

 

[LNahid2000]

lol @ treating renderings like a crystal ball. Did you fail to read the "for illustration purposes only" part?

 

[Hopkins123]

lol @ treating renderings like a crystal ball. Did you fail to read the "for illustration purposes only" part?

You're acting as if there isn't a land scarcity in the 416 and the development will never materialize.

We only need look to elsewhere along the path of the Bloor-Danforth (namely surrounding Victoria Park, High Park and Islington Stns) to know that subways trigger mass residential development. On scales yet to be seen as achievable with surface at-grade rail. I just see an endless string of two-storey shops lining the 501 Queen corridor from Long Branch all the way to Neville Park, with only the occasional high rise besides the area near Park Lawn - which itself used to be a row of seedy two-storey motels.

 

[OneCity]

Speaking of density and ridership...

That's Scarborough Centre within a decade or so's time.

With Downtown Toronto-like densities such as this and the air rights taken up by the new developments, where's an elevated toy train to go? Better to go underground and by that point there is little, if any, cost difference between using LRT or heavy rail subway technology (subways may in fact be cheaper as a LRT tunnel needs that wider diameter for the overhead wires). Psychosis, I know.

You may need to check into therapy for that Psychosis. It has spread thru-out Scarborough the smallest part of Toronto and must be stopped immediately. The good news is may be a cure: Read the Toronto Star & Metroland 100 x a day, write on a blackboard " There are absolutely no evidence to support removing a transfer before SCC" 1000 times, ride your bike to work when possible, and drink 2 glasses of craft beer a day for a week and you should be OK.

 

[Tuck]

It's about respecting Scarborough, and giving us the transit that we deserve, and not some lame LRT that none of us will use. The good LRTs that could've been built are already dead - that boat has sailed.

A+ trolling. I'll admit, I laughed.

 

[OneCity]

Riders who get on at Kipling station deserve a transfer free ride to Yonge/Bloor or St. George. They hate that they have to change trains at Islington.

Oh, that's right, there is no transfer at Islington. Just like no reasonable plan would force a transfer at Kennedy.


I don't think anyone would complain about this, provided:

• It is grade-separated for speed and reliability.
• it has the required capacity, which I would suspect would be in the 20-30 ppdph range.
• It does not include the walking transfer from Queen's Quay to Union. Overloading Union is almost as bad as overloading Yonge-Bloor, so ideally it would go somewhat north of that.

PS. It actually is a replacement for the SSE. The $4B would go a long way towards paying for this.
PPS. Following Eastern and crossing the Don Valley, I made it follow Front/Welllington.
View attachment 106349

No complaints.

 

[JGHali]

You're acting as if there isn't a land scarcity in the 416 and the development will never materialize.

We only need look to elsewhere along the path of the Bloor-Danforth (namely surrounding Victoria Park, High Park and Islington Stns) to know that subways trigger mass residential development. On scales yet to be seen as achievable with surface at-grade rail. I just see an endless string of two-storey shops lining the 501 Queen corridor from Long Branch all the way to Neville Park, with only the occasional high rise besides the area near Park Lawn - which itself used to be a row of seedy two-storey motels.

Oh, yes, I've always remarked on the "mass residential development" next to Sherbourne or Bathurst or Dufferin, to say nothing of fine examples of urbanity as Kipling and Warden. Or anywhere from Downsview to Eglinton West. Or Lawrence or Summerhill or Rosedale.

Even in North York it wasn't until the late 90s that condo construction really started taking off between Finch and Sheppard. And I can't think of a single new office building in the area built since that time. But that awfully big parking lot in the hydro corridor at Finch has been around a long time. Why expect SCC to be any different? (Actually, it will be, since much of the development along Yonge has benefited from fairly closely spaced stations and explicit policies promoting condo construction. A block away from Yonge and you've got nothing but the pre-existing post-war neighbourhoods of detached homes. It's hardly similar to, say, King and Spadina or points west which, remarkably, have experienced considerable residential development simply with the 504...).

 

[syn]

 

[syn]

Riders who get on at Kipling station deserve a transfer free ride to Yonge/Bloor or St. George. They hate that they have to change trains at Islington.

Oh, that's right, there is no transfer at Islington. Just like no reasonable plan would force a transfer at Kennedy.

View attachment 106349

Islington isn't 6km away from Kipling. It's not 5km north of Dundas/Bloor either.

Would someone at Bathurst and Bloor, a station that handles almost as many riders as the entire RT, be reasonable to demand they be able to get to Yonge and Eglinton (a station that handles 72,000+ /day) without any transfer??

When I get on the RT now, it's not like it even travels along Eglinton - it heads straight north, just as this extension will.

Apparently Scarborough riders are the only ones in the city who deserve to have a 5km trip north from the Bloor/Danforth Line without making any kind of transfer.

 

[44 North]

Speaking of density and ridership...

That's Scarborough Centre within a decade or so's time.

With Downtown Toronto-like densities such as this and the air rights taken up by the new developments, where's an elevated toy train to go? Better to go underground and by that point there is little, if any, cost difference between using LRT or heavy rail subway technology (subways may in fact be cheaper as a LRT tunnel needs that wider diameter for the overhead wires). Psychosis, I know.

A toy train? I can get being opposed to the transfer... anti-urban Vaughan got a seamless connection to the core, so it's more than fair for SCC to get above and beyond that. But to argue that a fully grade-separated line couldn't handle the loads, limited population numbers, or had nowhere to run...that's just clueless.

 

[BurlOak]

No complaints.

I think this shows that there are many better solutions to the SSE or transfer LRT.
Unfortunately, those in favour of the transfer LRT refused to consider anything else.
Those in favour of a continuous connection looked at numerous options, but started with the more conventional ideas and finally got acceptance on the SSE.

 

[LNahid2000]

You're acting as if there isn't a land scarcity in the 416 and the development will never materialize.

There is tons of land in the 416 that is far more desirable than Scarborough Centre. You have to be joking if you think Scarborough Centre will ever have downtown like densities.

 

[OneCity]

There is tons of land in the 416 that is far more desirable than Scarborough Centre. You have to be joking if you think Scarborough Centre will ever have downtown like densities.

This is absurd. It's like saying people wont buy a mansion in the Scarborough Bluffs because its not as desirable as the Bridle Path and surrounding areas

It will be built to the density the City allows because there is an will continue to be great demand for areas well connected to Downtown at a different price point as well. These satellite hubs like NYCC, Vaughan MC, Islington, will continue to be more and more attractive in the future due to congestion and cost of living as a seamless connection to the main jobs core will be an easy sell. The transfer one stop before Scarborough's main hub would affect its growth and attractiveness compared to it real comparable areas surrounding the core.

 

[LNahid2000]

It will be built to the density the City allows because there is an will continue to be great demand for areas well connected to Downtown at a different price point as well. These satellite hubs like NYCC, Vaughan MC, Islington, will continue to be more and more attractive in the future due to congestion and cost of living as a seamless connection to the main jobs core will be an easy sell. The transfer one stop before SCC, downgrades this hub below its actual comparable areas mentioned above and would affect the quality of growth it sees.

There are areas much better connected to downtown than Scaborough Centre. I'd choose NYCC, Vaughan MC and condos around Downsview/Wilson over Scarborough Centre since these locations would get me downtown quicker. I'd also choose anywhere along the new Eglinton LRT over Scarborough Centre since living somewhere like Don Mills & Eglinton will get me downtown much faster than living at Scarborough Centre as well.

There are already tons of areas with easy access to downtown that don't have high densities. What makes you think Scarborough Centre will be different?