Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

Makes no different how you cut it, Sheppard is a huge drain on TTC bottom line that is taking away service that is badly needed city wide. It also taking money way from below the line projects.

How "huge" is it, do you have the dollar value of the annual subsidy?

My estimate: TTC's total budget (expenses) is about $1.7 billion. I did not find expenses for rapid tranbsit (3 subway lines + RT), but heard that it is about 30% of total. The total length of rapid transit lines is 80 km; Sheppard subway is 5.5 km, or 1/15th. Then, the cost of running Sheppard should be approx. 2% of TTC's expenses; or $34 million a year.

Furthermore, it does generate some revenue, thus the subsidy should be less then $34 million. How much revenue, depends on the allocation rules. Assuming that 50 cents per ride can be attributed to Sheppard subway, at 15 million yearly rides, the revenue should be about $7 million. Then the subsidy is 34 - 7 = $ 27 million a year. That's noticeable, but not "huge".

Looking from another perspective, it costs 11 dollars per resident of Toronto per year to subsidise Sheppard subway.

I realize that transit funding is tight, and even that expense is not helpful; but it is not "huge", and does not significantly affect TTC's other operations.

 

[Rainforest]

As a vote-buying scheme, it's a dumb idea. As a transit proposal, it's a dumb idea. Pretty much a dumb idea all around.

I like the way you put it

Although as a transit proposal, it is not the dumbest idea possible.

But, certainly there are projects of higher priority and greater returns on investment.

 

[gweed123]

I like the way you put it

Although as a transit proposal, it is not the dumbest idea possible.

But, certainly there are projects of higher priority and greater returns on investment.

I tried to be as eloquent as I could .

There are certainly worse (like a subway on Finch), but it's definitely up there amongst the projects that have a whiff of potential reality behind them. I could certainly come up with a list of much better ways to spend $3-5 billion.

 

[CDL.TO]

In fairness, the 2-car off-peak trains only lasted for about a half-year or so. And the half-of-peak-service north of Eglinton was due to not having enough new trains delivered to provide a full level of service in 1973. (This was rectified before the remainder of the Yonge Line Extension opened in 1974.)

The University Subway ended service at 10pm or so 6 days a week and had no Sunday service until the mid-1970s.

Thanks for the added context. I honestly thought the Eglinton "short turns" lasted much longer.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

If any transit issue is going to be key in the 2018 election, I think it's going to be RER on the Milton Line. Mississauga right now is nearly all red, and if the Liberals are going to stay in power they're going to need to hold most of, if not all of those seats. Adding Milton into the RER plans would be a great way to do that. The Sheppard Subway would be about the same price, and would affect a fraction of the ridings, not to mention would be a huge waste of money.

Supporting the Sheppard Subway would also piss off a lot of people in Old Toronto and beyond. Any ridings they gain from it may very well be offset by losses elsewhere in Toronto, assuming the NDP runs a competent campaign.

I wouldn't put it beyond the Liberals to support the extension though. It's just not something I think is particularly likely. There are more efficient ways to spend money to win votes than Sheppard.

 

[crs1026]

Supporting the Sheppard Subway would also piss off a lot of people in Old Toronto and beyond. Any ridings they gain from it may very well be offset by losses elsewhere in Toronto, assuming the NDP runs a competent campaign.

I wouldn't put it beyond the Liberals to support the extension though. It's just not something I think is particularly likely. There are more efficient ways to spend money to win votes than Sheppard.

I can't see any of the parties supporting it, but I wish someone would, as the debate would be really constructive - the biggest pushback issue would be "do we need a subway, or would something cheaper suffice?" If more people internalised that issue, it would make the SRT debate a lot more productive.

Perversely, promoting a Sheppard extension might kill two subways with one stone.

- Paul

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

Yes, Sheppard would attract a substantial amount of new riders because the land use/zoning in several areas hasn't been put to its full potential yet. All the industrial lands in-between Agincourt and the Town Centre can be redeveloped. There's patches of vacant land elsewhere along the route, particularly around Warden and Victoria Park, that can be rezoned and developed as well.

And now onto the major connecting surface routes. 24/224 Victoria Park, 68 Warden, 17 Birchmount, 43 Kennedy and 57 Midland in total see a daily weekday ridership of 85,000. The 190 sees 10,000. So it's safe to say a good chunk of those passengers would transfer at a Sheppard subway stop rather than continue south on the bus to Eglinton or the BD. Does a Sheppard subway really sound so unreasonable, then?

Since Sheppard West has to be built as a subway to Downsview (no room on the surface for tracks), the case for just restoring the entire Network 2011 plan altogether from Dufferin to McCowan makes so much more sense. I don't think we ought to delay, certainly not til mid-century. Construction on several corridors should be ongoing. Being snobbish or prejudice against extending the subway, for whatever reason, fixes nothing.

Those areas can be zoned for development of condos, but condos do not add substantially to daily users of a subway line. Ridership depends on feeder routes. Further, the Sheppard condo is right next to the 401 and more than half of those condos from those developments will likely be automobile users rather than transit users.

Those surface routes are long. Only the first 4km of them are actually north of Sheppard and would transfer onto the line, and my understanding is that the routes are fairly empty north of Sheppard. So it remains to be seen how many of those would actually transfer onto Line 4. Plus, how many of them will instead opt for the Finch or Steeles bus which would save them a transfer?

Improved transit in York Region including GO-RER will be in place when a Sheppard East Subway is completed, meaning that many York-Region riders will opt for GO-RER instead of bussing down to the SRT/Line 2.

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to transit on the Sheppard corridor on principle. It just needs to be converted into an LRT. A Relief Line that heads to Sheppard-Don Mills might also do wonders for the practicality and usefulness of the subway line.

 

[11th]

Not only does Sheppard have weak feeder routes, there are bus routes which directly compete for its patronage...

Ideally they should direct the Steeles and Finch bus passengers towards Sheppard, and NOT towards the Yonge line. However, the place where this could make sense is exactly the section of Sheppard which does not have the subway.

The current Line 4 is in its worst possible form: it does not intersect with the more frequent/used Scarborough N-S bus routes, it terminates at Yonge and involves a tedious transfer to Sheppard West buses.
Also Line 1 ends at Finch - justifying route such as 199 which competes for Line 4's patronage.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Ideally they should direct the Steeles and Finch bus passengers towards Sheppard, and NOT towards the Yonge line. However, the place where this could make sense is exactly the section of Sheppard which does not have the subway.

The current Line 4 is in its worst possible form: it does not intersect with the more frequent/used Scarborough N-S bus routes, it terminates at Yonge and involves a tedious transfer to Sheppard West buses.
Also Line 1 ends at Finch - justifying route such as 199 which competes for Line 4's patronage.

We've studied the Sheppard Subway extension to death. We know it has shit usage regardless of where it is extended. No amount of jerry rigging bus routes will change that.

 

[Midtown Urbanist]

We've studied the Sheppard Subway extension to death. We know it has shit usage regardless of where it is extended. No amount of jerry rigging bus routes will change that.

Nor do jerry-rigged bus routes to make the Sheppard Subway or its extension look viable necessarily improve the commuting experience for users, which I think was the point of public transit.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

As a vote-buying scheme, it's a dumb idea. As a transit proposal, it's a dumb idea. Pretty much a dumb idea all around.

Yeah. Sheppard subway will not attract nearly as much attention as SSE. It may be important for a couple of local councillors. But Liberals, or any party for that matter, would be foolish if they bank on the Sheppard corridor.

Final Post on this because I don't like to talk too much about this at has been 10 years as of today for this project, The Liberal Caucus in eastern Toronto supports it and the Liberals will not want to lose. I agree SSE is better but when it comes to votes there is no logic.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Final Post on this because I don't like to talk too much about this at has been 10 years as of today for this project, The Liberal Caucus in eastern Toronto supports it and the Liberals will not want to lose. I agree SSE is better but when it comes to votes there is no logic.

The Liberal Caucus in eastern Toronto should support something useful and politically beneficial - like bringing the Relief Line to Sheppard and Don Mills.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

Time to build!

 

[Dan416]

Why is there all this talk about Sheppard in the Scarborough thread?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why is there all this talk about Sheppard in the Scarborough thread?

Because UT.