TheTigerMaster
Superstar
I agree with you Alvin. The fact that the SRT and ECLRT aren't connected is incredibly frustrating. 20 years from now, everyone at UT will be cursing wondering why it wasn't done.
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I agree with you Alvin. The fact that the SRT and ECLRT aren't connected is incredibly frustrating. 20 years from now, everyone at UT will be cursing wondering why it wasn't done.
Solid Snake
Active Member
In the end, we`ll know the true picture of Toronto`s future transit network will look like after the next provincial election.
A PC government would upload the subway and take control of future rapid transit expansions (ending the amateurism of city hall in transit) and go back to the old memorandum of understanding which would see the return of the Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown as a single line and 100% grade separated which is an obvious choice. (not as LRT but Skytrain)
City Hall's constant interfering which slowed down the crosstown by adding Leslie and reducing the tunnel portion is beyond frustrating. This needs to end.
I'm constantly amused on how much some people sees Transit City as both a bible and a religion to be worshiped.
A PC government would upload the subway and take control of future rapid transit expansions (ending the amateurism of city hall in transit) and go back to the old memorandum of understanding which would see the return of the Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown as a single line and 100% grade separated which is an obvious choice. (not as LRT but Skytrain)
City Hall's constant interfering which slowed down the crosstown by adding Leslie and reducing the tunnel portion is beyond frustrating. This needs to end.
I'm constantly amused on how much some people sees Transit City as both a bible and a religion to be worshiped.
Voltz
Senior Member
Are you living in some alternative universe or something?
A PC government would be horrible for transit, and putting eglinton fully underground is a colossal waste of money.
Metrolinx is responsible for restoring the Leslie stop, they were too eager to appease a few loud mouths who were only concerned about their property values, and they should have seen the need to underground that section of the line a long time ago.
Rob Ford is responsible for the mess we are in, his horrible leadership and buffoonery is directly responsible for the current situation which will likely result in yet another generation with little transit built other than a few pork barrel vote grabbing lines.
Adjei
Senior Member
The way the guy is talking you would think it wasn't actually the PC government who actually came in and filled in an already under constructed subway line...Yeah such transit leaders they are!
Solid Snake
Active Member
Nope. I'm just reporting what the PC intends to do, not making policies.
I admit it's a gamble. Just keep in mind that transit city was supposed to be extensive (120KM of lightrail for 10 to 15B$). More than half of it was cut. The crosstown should be 100% grade separated. Elevated should have been explored but the PC seemed determined to put it underground.
Well, the whining from local Councillors was a factor too. This lines potential is being gutted
His management of the transit file was terrible, true but Transit City is not without weaknesses. His criticism of that plan was warranted.
BurlOak
Senior Member
That Scarborough-Eglinton Crosstown was a great idea and I think Ford did that rather well - He acted quickly and created the framework for a true crosstown line. Him not going to Council, and nobody actually working to clean up the bugs with the plan were major mistakes. I just wish it was known why elevated was not considered through Scarborough.
Did Ford demand that it be underground? There was absolutely no public discussion about elevated - even though it satisfied the need for a fully grade-separated line at a much reduced cost. Could the Province have demanded underground so that there would be no money left over for the Sheppard subway line? The choice of vehicle could not have been Fords since I doubt he knows the difference between HRT, LRT, or Skytrain - or does he really care.
BurlOak
Senior Member
The best thing for transit would be an election in the near future. Transit is top of mind and I am sure that some good transit funding and route promises would be made. In a couple of years time, other issues may come up and then transit would be on the back burner again.
adeel
Active Member
http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/tra...disputes_subway_price_tag_from_metrolinx.html
TTC CEO Andy Byford is disputing some of the costs outlined in a Metrolinx ultimatum to the city telling Toronto to clarify its position on whether it wants the Scarborough RT converted to a subway or light rail transit (LRT).
In a memo obtained by the Toronto Star, Byford takes particular issue with the $320-million price Metrolinx has attached to renovating Kennedy Station.
The two sides will meet Tuesday to begin clarifying the differences in their cost estimates for upgrading the SRT to a subway in the latest round of political strife over subways versus LRT in Scarborough.
On Friday Metrolinx threatened to suspend work on the $1.8-billion SRT conversion to LRT if the city doesn’t reaffirm its commitment to the project by Aug. 2.
Video
Dramatic bus crash in Turkey caught on tape
Dramatic bus crash in Turkey caught on tape
$1.2M Missing From Swiss Plane at JFK Landing
$1.2M Missing From Swiss Plane at JFK Landing
Although the city, the TTC and Metrolinx signed an agreement in November to convert the SRT to LRT, the provincial agency says Toronto has since issued mixed signals — specifically a May vote by council asking the province to instead consider replacing the rapidly failing SRT with a subway.
Building a subway instead of an LRT would add $923 million to the $1.8 billion the province has budgeted for the project, according to Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig, who has been clear that there’s no more provincial money for the SRT makeover. The Metrolinx figure is nearly double the $500-million estimate the TTC provided earlier.
Councillors have used the TTC figure to put the cost of a subway between Kennedy Station and McCowan Rd. at $2.3 billion. TTC Chair Karen Stintz (city councillor for Eglinton-Lawrence) and Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker (Scarborough Centre), say extending the Danforth subway rather than building an LRT would eliminate a transfer between the two lines at Kennedy station and connect with the planned Sheppard East LRT.
In his note to the TTC board, Byford says the TTC’s estimate did not include “sunk costs” for engineering and design of light rail or the purchase of light rail vehicles. “The sunk costs seem reasonable but need verification,” he wrote.
The reconstruction of Kennedy station was also not part of the TTC’s estimate. “We could not support this number quoted,” said Byford.
If the city pursues the subway option, Metrolinx says $320 million of the SRT budget will have to migrate to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT project.
“Metrolinx are assigning a greater amount of the Kennedy reconstruction to the SRT project if it changes. Our view is that doesn’t seem logical,” Byford told the Star on Sunday.
“I don’t know why they’re taking the line they are. We believe it’s more logical to divide the costs in a different way,” he said. “That’s what we need to thrash out on Tuesday.”
Byford, who personally favours a subway if the money is available, said he believes the province will listen to the city’s definitive request.
“What the province wants, not unreasonably, is clarity,” he said.
Meantime, the TTC is working toward the master agreement with Metrolinx that calls for an LRT.
Some city councillors, including Josh Matlow (St. Paul’s) and Gord Perks (Parkdale-High Park), worry that the May council vote may backfire and leave Scarborough residents with no new transit at all.
“The Metrolinx letter is very dangerous,” said Perks. “I worry that Karen and Glenn will lead us into a subways-or-nothing showdown for political reasons.”
The Aug. 2 deadline means that council would need to pass a resolution at its July 16 meeting. On Friday, Stintz said she would speak to city manager Joe Pennachetti about how it could be added to that council agenda.
Among the costs that would have to be factored into the cost of a subway rather than an LRT is the price of keeping the old SRT running for an additional five years.
Under the LRT plan, the SRT was supposed to shut down after the Pan Am Games in 2015 for about four years, consigning about 40,000 riders a day to buses during the construction.
Although the subway, which would have to run on a different route than the existing SRT, would provide only 7.6 km of new transit, versus 9.9 km for an LRT, it would attract more riders.
Projections show 36 million people a year would ride a Danforth subway extension, compared to 31 million on an LRT. However, the LRT would put more residents within walking distance of the new transit: 47,000 versus only 24,000 for a subway.
Queen’s Park has budgeted $8.4 billion to build four LRTs in Toronto, including the new SRT, which is tied into construction of the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT and new lines on Finch West and Sheppard East.
TTC CEO Andy Byford is disputing some of the costs outlined in a Metrolinx ultimatum to the city telling Toronto to clarify its position on whether it wants the Scarborough RT converted to a subway or light rail transit (LRT).
In a memo obtained by the Toronto Star, Byford takes particular issue with the $320-million price Metrolinx has attached to renovating Kennedy Station.
The two sides will meet Tuesday to begin clarifying the differences in their cost estimates for upgrading the SRT to a subway in the latest round of political strife over subways versus LRT in Scarborough.
On Friday Metrolinx threatened to suspend work on the $1.8-billion SRT conversion to LRT if the city doesn’t reaffirm its commitment to the project by Aug. 2.
Video
Dramatic bus crash in Turkey caught on tape
Dramatic bus crash in Turkey caught on tape
$1.2M Missing From Swiss Plane at JFK Landing
$1.2M Missing From Swiss Plane at JFK Landing
Although the city, the TTC and Metrolinx signed an agreement in November to convert the SRT to LRT, the provincial agency says Toronto has since issued mixed signals — specifically a May vote by council asking the province to instead consider replacing the rapidly failing SRT with a subway.
Building a subway instead of an LRT would add $923 million to the $1.8 billion the province has budgeted for the project, according to Metrolinx CEO Bruce McCuaig, who has been clear that there’s no more provincial money for the SRT makeover. The Metrolinx figure is nearly double the $500-million estimate the TTC provided earlier.
Councillors have used the TTC figure to put the cost of a subway between Kennedy Station and McCowan Rd. at $2.3 billion. TTC Chair Karen Stintz (city councillor for Eglinton-Lawrence) and Councillor Glenn De Baeremaeker (Scarborough Centre), say extending the Danforth subway rather than building an LRT would eliminate a transfer between the two lines at Kennedy station and connect with the planned Sheppard East LRT.
In his note to the TTC board, Byford says the TTC’s estimate did not include “sunk costs” for engineering and design of light rail or the purchase of light rail vehicles. “The sunk costs seem reasonable but need verification,” he wrote.
The reconstruction of Kennedy station was also not part of the TTC’s estimate. “We could not support this number quoted,” said Byford.
If the city pursues the subway option, Metrolinx says $320 million of the SRT budget will have to migrate to the Eglinton Crosstown LRT project.
“Metrolinx are assigning a greater amount of the Kennedy reconstruction to the SRT project if it changes. Our view is that doesn’t seem logical,” Byford told the Star on Sunday.
“I don’t know why they’re taking the line they are. We believe it’s more logical to divide the costs in a different way,” he said. “That’s what we need to thrash out on Tuesday.”
Byford, who personally favours a subway if the money is available, said he believes the province will listen to the city’s definitive request.
“What the province wants, not unreasonably, is clarity,” he said.
Meantime, the TTC is working toward the master agreement with Metrolinx that calls for an LRT.
Some city councillors, including Josh Matlow (St. Paul’s) and Gord Perks (Parkdale-High Park), worry that the May council vote may backfire and leave Scarborough residents with no new transit at all.
“The Metrolinx letter is very dangerous,” said Perks. “I worry that Karen and Glenn will lead us into a subways-or-nothing showdown for political reasons.”
The Aug. 2 deadline means that council would need to pass a resolution at its July 16 meeting. On Friday, Stintz said she would speak to city manager Joe Pennachetti about how it could be added to that council agenda.
Among the costs that would have to be factored into the cost of a subway rather than an LRT is the price of keeping the old SRT running for an additional five years.
Under the LRT plan, the SRT was supposed to shut down after the Pan Am Games in 2015 for about four years, consigning about 40,000 riders a day to buses during the construction.
Although the subway, which would have to run on a different route than the existing SRT, would provide only 7.6 km of new transit, versus 9.9 km for an LRT, it would attract more riders.
Projections show 36 million people a year would ride a Danforth subway extension, compared to 31 million on an LRT. However, the LRT would put more residents within walking distance of the new transit: 47,000 versus only 24,000 for a subway.
Queen’s Park has budgeted $8.4 billion to build four LRTs in Toronto, including the new SRT, which is tied into construction of the Eglinton-Scarborough Crosstown LRT and new lines on Finch West and Sheppard East.
denfromoakvillemilton
Senior Member
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OK just build the subway above ground! Anyone? Anyone? It can go all the way up McCowan to Finch or Steeles.
nhui06
Active Member
I personally think that the current LRT line serves Scarborough a lot better then just the subway. The stops at Centennial College and Markham Rd are especially important, since it brings rapid transit to places that need them (college, and Markham Rd is near Malvern and serves as a stop for north east Scarborough).
Something they should really consider doing is moving the Ellesmere stop a bit north to Progress and Kennedy. The current Ellesmere stop is a dead stop because it is under a bridge in a remote area. If they can dig underground a bit north and have a station near Kennedy and Progress, they will instantly serve more people around the Kennedy Commons commercial plaza and the apartment complexes around that area.
To me, having a subway extension is just to save people a few minutes and the trouble of transferring from Subway to LRT; not a big concern to me.
BurlOak
Senior Member
You could move it maybe 200m north from where it is now if it went along Progress instead of the current alignment - you have to have it south of where the north to east curve begins. But, it would still be 400m east of Kennedy - I don't think its worth the effort.
The two benefits of the subway extension are the lack of transfer at Kennedy, and the 36 month shutdown. Both of these problems were artificially created by some of the Transit City decisions and did not have to happen.
andrewpmk
Senior Member
If you made Eglinton elevated, and then built the SRT extension to Markham/Sheppard, how much would the increased cost of making Eglinton elevated instead of LRT be, compared to the $900M increase in cost for replacing the SRT with a subway and keeping Eglinton LRT? My guess is that the Eglinton elevated option would be at most slightly more expensive.
BurlOak
Senior Member
Vancouver built their Canada line, half underground and half elevated for less than $150M/km. My best guess is that it would be and extra $300M or so to elevate as you describe. To the best of my knowledge, there has been no official consideration of the elevated option. I am not sure the reason, maybe it is just assumed that the public does not like elevated.
TheTigerMaster
Superstar
So $300 Million is all that separates the ECLRT from being this quazi sorta rapid transit to real rapid tranisit.
I am hoping that during the next Council meet, they'll endorse elevation. Toronto should pay the $300 Million gap if needed.and the VRT would easily generate the funds needed.
It would most likely end up being less expensive than the subway conversion option. Just look at the cost of the Union-Pearson elevated guideway. It's something like $50 million/km. Naturally, the design specs need to be different, and the biggest cost associated with elevated LRT is the stations. Since they need to be 90m platforms, the cost of doing an elevated station wouldn't be significantly less than doing an underground station. Canada Line platforms are 30m I believe, so that's why their stations are so much less expensive. The Evergreen Line stations are probably a better baseline to use, because I believe their platforms are around 90m as well.
Now having said that, since it would be elevated, the stop spacing could be further apart, so elevated stations would only be needed at Wynford, Bermondsey, Victoria Park, Warden, and Birchmount, with the elevated station at Kennedy being there regardless of which plan is chosen. If each station costs $150 million more to do elevated than at-grade, you're looking at an additional $750 million to elevate (that's assuming that the per km cost of doing at-grade track is roughly equal to doing elevated track).