Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[nfitz]

Wasn't aware of the first, my understanding was grade separation was planned to Don Mills, but the desire for a Leslie stop torpedoed that.

No, the underground option was the second or third plan. But when they started to get opposition they defaulted to the original already approved plan in the east - which is what is now being built.

As for the DRL, I don't count that as a serious plan until the are some funding commitments.

Not sure which of the original 7 LRT lines you think is being replaced by Subway. Jane or Finch West?

 

[goreckm]

No, the underground option was the second or third plan. But when they started to get opposition they defaulted to the original already approved plan in the east - which is what is now being built.

Good to know. Still disappointing that they couldn't add a little bit of extra money to do this right. Further illustrates the point that there really is no more money than what was originally promised.

Not sure which of the original 7 LRT lines you think is being replaced by Subway. Jane or Finch West?

The Scarborough Malvern LRT that was supposed to replace the SRT, and is now a subway.

 

[OneCity]

The Scarborough Malvern LRT that was supposed to replace the SRT, and is now a subway.

You mean just the SLRT. SMLRT was a different line in Transit City & was basically the Crosstown East LRT but connecting further than UTSC to Malvern Town Centre. That line was never funded. The SLRT went to Markham and Milner which is the south Malvern tip but not into the Town Centre.

 

[nfitz]

The Scarborough Malvern LRT that was supposed to replace the SRT, and is now a subway.

The Scarborough Malvern LRT (now called the Crosstown East LRT) was never to replace the SRT, nor was it ever replaced by subway.

I think your are thinking of Line 3 - the Scarborough RT line. It was not one of the original 7 LRT lines. When Miller announced the original 7 LRT lines, the plan for the RT was to instead spend $190 million to modify the existing line and extend to the stations, to allow for longer, newer, RT trains, similar to what Vancouver is now running.

 

[salsa]

Just to be clear, I do not wish to reopen the subway vs LRT discussion.

*****

That being said, this is amazing.


Mayor John Tory 'bombarded' the owner of Scarborough Town Centre to support a subway

Mayor John Tory pushed the owner of Scarborough Town Centre to back the controversial one-stop subway extension plan, the company says, as it further distanced itself from that project.

And though the mayor has previously brushed off involvement with a lobby group backed by Oxford Properties, in an unusual move president and CEO Blake Hutcheson told a crowd of investors on Monday that Tory influenced them to get involved with the ConnectScarborough organization that has been criticized as portraying itself as a grassroots campaign.

“We’ve been bombarded by the mayor’s office, who are fully in favour of the subway; by multiple councillors who have an alternative view,” Hutcheson said. “The Scarborough Town Centre team backed a group that were advocates for the subway . . . Which is what the mayor wanted, frankly, asked us to support.”

Oxford had quietly de-funded the ConnectScarborough group and had backed away from strongly advocating for a subway as the decision came to another vote at council.

https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...rborough-town-centre-to-support-a-subway.html


By the way, what was John Tory telling us about his connection to Oxford and ConnectScarborough? "I think I shook their hand once in a mall, they were at a booth and I think I shook their hand". What a lie. Turns out he helped plant those AstroTurf seeds himself.

Also remember that during the public hearing at Executive Committee, some Scarborough residents falsely claimed the subway would save them lots of time. Several of those deputants were affiliated with Scarborough Connects and Oxford Properties. Later during the council debate, the mayor repeatedly cited those deputants as a key reason for building the SSE, said these are "real people".

This story today is just further proof how the mayor and his allies - being unable to justify their support through normal evidence-based means - has to rely exclusively on backroom manipulation and public misinformation campaigns to manufacture a fake rationale for the subway. He is so aggressively full of crap on the SSE, to the point that any moment now he will stoop to Trump's level and accuse critics as being enemies of the people. But you know what, if this is the transit plan he wants to take to the voters, I say go right ahead. Lets find out just how great of a political benefit this will turn out to be in the long run, which we all know was the only motive all along. Lets see what other bad news we will learn in the next staff report, which is conveniently scheduled to come out right before the election. Let this farce follow him around for the rest of his political career.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Why is the Oxford CEO suddenly coming out with this? Surely they understand this won't look good for Tory or the SSE (which Oxford allegedly supports).

 

[crs1026]

Why is the Oxford CEO suddenly coming out with this? Surely they understand this won't look good for Tory or the SSE (which Oxford allegedly supports).

I believe Oxford is the Real estate arm of OMERS. It's huge, and Toronto is not its biggest domain.

Good reason not to get caught up in the fray with a single mayor on a local issue. Some form of higher order transit to STC was guaranteed - did they really care who won the debate?

PS - Possibly their internal governance forced them to take a more arms length position.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Just to be clear, I do not wish to reopen the subway vs LRT discussion.

*****

That being said, this is amazing.


Mayor John Tory 'bombarded' the owner of Scarborough Town Centre to support a subway


https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...rborough-town-centre-to-support-a-subway.html

Very similar, save for being on a much larger scale, is happening in Montreal with REM. I don't have details handy, but had the case made to me yesterday. I'll try and find links and reference later and post. Haven't read the TorStar yet today, will now.

 

[WislaHD]

Sounds lke Oxford Properties should be footing part of the bill for the subway.

Would be a good compromise for me. The city can spend money on the tunnel and stations until Lawrence East, and everything after that should be on Oxford Properties' dime.

 

[crs1026]

Sounds lke Oxford Properties should be footing part of the bill for the subway.

Would be a good compromise for me. The city can spend money on the tunnel and stations until Lawrence East, and everything after that should be on Oxford Properties' dime.

Well, they did pay development charges, and if they build more up there, they will pay again. And property taxes. Section 37 fees, who knows?

Of course, if this Investment Bank thing goes through, OMERS may end up funding the thing anyways. Another reason why Oxford might back away from supporting the most lavish, expense-be-damned version of the project.

- Paul

 

[steveintoronto]

Of course, if this Investment Bank thing goes through, OMERS may end up funding the thing anyways. Another reason why Oxford might back away from supporting the most lavish, expense-be-damned version of the project.

That's a crucial point, as in New York and London UK, levies are directly assessed to get projects like this done. In the case of the Infrastructure Bank, positively affected developers can *bolster* the business case by either directly contributing funding to the project, and/or being part of the consortium underwriting and building the project, and holding shares and having a seat on the board, and getting a yield on their investment in multiple ways.

It's beyond ironic how Tory claimed "SmartTrack is our Crossrail" (They both have tracks and trains, and that's about it), but meanwhile:
How Crossrail is paid for
The Greater London Authority (GLA) is expected to contribute around £4.1bn (of its agreed contribution to the £15.9 billion Crossrail project) using income generated from a new business rates supplement (BRS). Powers were granted to the GLA to introduce this under the 2009 Business Rates Supplements Act.

The policies for the Crossrail BRS are set out in the final prospectus. From 1 April 2017 the Crossrail BRS will only apply to properties on the rating list with a rateable value above £70,000 to reflect the impact of the 2017 revaluation of non domestic properties as explained below.

Less than one in five of London’s business and other non-domestic premises are liable to pay the Crossrail BRS. Under the BRS a ratepayer for a property (or rating assessment) with a rateable value of £100,000 is liable for an annual BRS contribution of £2,000 (that is, £100,000 x the 2p in the pound BRS multiplier).

Reliefs for the BRS (such as registered charities) will apply on the same basis and at the same rate as for National Non-Domestic Rates (NNDR).
[...]
https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-d...don/paying-crossrail-business-rate-supplement

No free ride for developers in 'World Class Cities'. The Line 7 extension in NYC was paid for completely from City and Developer funds, not state or federal aid.

Edit to Add:
[...]
3. It was paid for by the city with an innovative funding scheme.
Bloomberg wanted the 7 train so badly that rather than wait for the MTA to drum up the money (he’d still be waiting), the administration said the city itself would foot the bill. The funding structure they devised, known as “tax incremental financing,” was an innovative one—at least by the standards of U.S. transportation funding. The city issued bonds for the construction to be repaid by future tax revenue from developers whose property value would soar once the extension was complete.

On paper, at least, the plan was a great example of what’s called “value capture”—leveraging real estate gains for the good of public transit. In practice, of course, there were hiccups. Officials later ended up giving Hudson Yards developers a tax subsidy, which Columbia University planning scholar David King called “exactly the opposite of capturing increased property values.”
[...]
https://www.citylab.com/transportat...ew-york-subways-new-7-train-extension/404800/

 

[OneCity]

Just to be clear, I do not wish to reopen the subway vs LRT discussion.

*****

That being said, this is amazing.


Mayor John Tory 'bombarded' the owner of Scarborough Town Centre to support a subway


https://www.thestar.com/news/city_h...rborough-town-centre-to-support-a-subway.html


By the way, what was John Tory telling us about his connection to Oxford and ConnectScarborough? "I think I shook their hand once in a mall, they were at a booth and I think I shook their hand". What a lie. Turns out he helped plant those AstroTurf seeds himself.

Also remember that during the public hearing at Executive Committee, some Scarborough residents falsely claimed the subway would save them lots of time. Several of those deputants were affiliated with Scarborough Connects and Oxford Properties. Later during the council debate, the mayor repeatedly cited those deputants as a key reason for building the SSE, said these are "real people".

This story today is just further proof how the mayor and his allies - being unable to justify their support through normal evidence-based means - has to rely exclusively on backroom manipulation and public misinformation campaigns to manufacture a fake rationale for the subway. He is so aggressively full of crap on the SSE, to the point that any moment now he will stoop to Trump's level and accuse critics as being enemies of the people. But you know what, if this is the transit plan he wants to take to the voters, I say go right ahead. Lets find out just how great of a political benefit this will turn out to be in the long run, which we all know was the only motive all along. Lets see what other bad news we will learn in the next staff report, which is conveniently scheduled to come out right before the election. Let this farce follow him around for the rest of his political career.

Certainly stupid, but I wouldn't call it amazing overall. Just an amazingly stupid tactic on Tory's part.

Tory's camp was likely a bit desperate to defend a completely neutered subway against as an organized attack coming from the media and LRT special interest groups before the subway vote. Oxford answered the call(s) but when they were called out for a questionable conflicting relationship the pressure likely came down pretty heavy on Oxford from OMERS to back off and not turn it into something bigger. Its good to show everyone Tory's dealings none the less as this one was just the obvious one. Always wish the media went deeper for all Politicians on all projects, even though most conflicts aren't this obvious its not that hard to follow the money. Who knows Bombardier might have some names attached, with their "evidence" based LRTs.

As much as I want Tory out so Scarborough can build a proper subway without Smarttrack and I don't want to see an the Eglinton LRT get completely back seated, don't want a far more polarizing Mayor, dont want a transfer before SCC and don't want any more delays in building. With this kind of stupidity Tory is lucky the competition still seems to be so extreme in their platforms as he might still squeeze it thru.

 

[salsa]

That's a crucial point, as in New York and London UK, levies are directly assessed to get projects like this done. In the case of the Infrastructure Bank, positively affected developers can *bolster* the business case by either directly contributing funding to the project, and/or being part of the consortium underwriting and building the project, and holding shares and having a seat on the board, and getting a yield on their investment in multiple ways.

It's beyond ironic how Tory claimed "SmartTrack is our Crossrail" (They both have tracks and trains, and that's about it), but meanwhile:
How Crossrail is paid for
The Greater London Authority (GLA) is expected to contribute around £4.1bn (of its agreed contribution to the £15.9 billion Crossrail project) using income generated from a new business rates supplement (BRS). Powers were granted to the GLA to introduce this under the 2009 Business Rates Supplements Act.

The policies for the Crossrail BRS are set out in the final prospectus. From 1 April 2017 the Crossrail BRS will only apply to properties on the rating list with a rateable value above £70,000 to reflect the impact of the 2017 revaluation of non domestic properties as explained below.

Less than one in five of London’s business and other non-domestic premises are liable to pay the Crossrail BRS. Under the BRS a ratepayer for a property (or rating assessment) with a rateable value of £100,000 is liable for an annual BRS contribution of £2,000 (that is, £100,000 x the 2p in the pound BRS multiplier).

Reliefs for the BRS (such as registered charities) will apply on the same basis and at the same rate as for National Non-Domestic Rates (NNDR).
[...]
https://www.london.gov.uk/what-we-d...don/paying-crossrail-business-rate-supplement

No free ride for developers in 'World Class Cities'. The Line 7 extension in NYC was paid for completely from City and Developer funds, not state or federal aid.

Edit to Add:
[...]
3. It was paid for by the city with an innovative funding scheme.
Bloomberg wanted the 7 train so badly that rather than wait for the MTA to drum up the money (he’d still be waiting), the administration said the city itself would foot the bill. The funding structure they devised, known as “tax incremental financing,” was an innovative one—at least by the standards of U.S. transportation funding. The city issued bonds for the construction to be repaid by future tax revenue from developers whose property value would soar once the extension was complete.

On paper, at least, the plan was a great example of what’s called “value capture”—leveraging real estate gains for the good of public transit. In practice, of course, there were hiccups. Officials later ended up giving Hudson Yards developers a tax subsidy, which Columbia University planning scholar David King called “exactly the opposite of capturing increased property values.”
[...]
https://www.citylab.com/transportat...ew-york-subways-new-7-train-extension/404800/

Oh great, Crossrail has made its way into yet another thread.

 

[steveintoronto]

Oh great, Crossrail has made its way into yet another thread.

Well you see Salsa, since Tory raised it, as I explained in the context, and New York has similar, it's entirely relevant. Choose any other *World Class City* of your liking, and see how they do it.

Oh great, Salsa unable to handle how others do it again...

So let's provide another example of how others do it:

[...]The solution:
An innovative finance package to deliver the Northern Line Extension was thrashed out by TfL, the GLA, Wandsworth Borough Council and Lambeth Council. It was agreed that the lion’s share of Section 106 and Community Infrastructure Levy contributions from sites in the Nine Elms Enterprise Zone, within which Battersea Power Station sits, would be siphoned off to help fund the tube line extension.

Chris Buss, Wandsworth Borough Council’s finance director and deputy chief executive, says all parties agreed that the Northern Line Extension should "take a degree of priority" and therefore receive the largest chunk of developer contributions from within the Nine Elms Enterprise Zone. "If there hadn’t been sufficient funding [left over] for us to [deliver other required infrastructure locally] there could have been some interesting discussions, but it didn’t get that far," he adds.

A Tax Increment Financing deal was also agreed to provide additional funding for the Northern Line Extension. It will see the GLA take out a loan of up to £1 billion to fund the project, with a repayment guarantee provided by the UK government. Loan repayments are due to be paid back, in part, through future growth in business rates revenue within the Nine Elms Enterprise Zone. The CiL and s106 revenues will also be used to pay back the loan.

An economic study was carried out to prove to the Treasury and the Department for Communities and Local Government that the estimated uplift in business rates would come from genuinely new business growth, rather than from businesses relocating from other areas. The extent of planning permissions in the pipeline was also assessed to help provide an estimate of the future growth in business rates. [...]

http://www.placemakingresource.com/...rement-financing-fund-northern-line-extension

How's Tory coming along with his? The reason Crossrail gets so much mention in any forum on transit infrastructure spending is because it is the single largest infrastructure project in Europe, and it's coming in on time, slightly under budget, and being studied by other cities around the world as a prime case of how to fund such projects.

Here's another comparison, perhaps with an impending lesson to learn from Toronto not having a business case for the SSE, and the Feds saying "You got $660,000, you want more, then apply to the pending Infrastucture Bank":

'Inadequate' submission puts NSW down the list
Alexandra Smith
February 6, 2009
NSW could miss out on Federal Government money for vital projects such as the western metro plan because its funding submission was so inadequate.

Infrastructure Australia sources said the NSW Government's submission still lacks detail on the benefits and costings for its key projects and the state was at risk of being sidelined from early funding when the first round is announced, probably next month.

"There's a lack of integrated planning in the NSW submission," one senior source said. "It clearly took them by surprise and they are constantly updating the submission - it's changing every day."

The Premier, Nathan Rees, is relying on the federal funding to kick-start his Government after coming under intense criticism for his mini-budget, in which he scrapped the north-west metro plan and then hastily announced a replacement CBD Metro.

Another source said the NSW submission looked like it had been "done on the back of an envelope" and lacked critical detail, such as how a metro system through the CBD would benefit NSW economically.

The source said there was an "unstable situation" in NSW because of internal bickering between "various factions" who were at war over whether Sydney should build a metro or upgrade its ailing heavy rail network.

"There is no doubt that NSW will get some [funding] but [the Federal Government] wants to see what bang they will get for their buck. NSW hasn't been able to prioritise or articulate where their problems are," the source said.

It is understood Infrastructure Australia chiefs had to send the NSW submission back three times because it did not adequately identify how the projects would "stack up". It is understood the submissions from Victoria, South Australia and Queensland were much more impressive. [...]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national...w-down-the-list/2009/02/05/1233423405333.html

 

[nfitz]

Oh great, Crossrail has made its way into yet another thread.

Indeed. It has absolutely no relevance in this thread. This is more in line with the recent $2.4 billion 1-station, 2.4 km extension of the Flushing Line or the under construction £1.2 billion 2-station 3.2 km extension of the Northern (Charing Cross) Line to Battersea.