Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

Sadly, the Wynne government is for SSE and against road tolls, so nothing sane could happen on transit without a change of provincial government. Probably not then, either.

And yet, we see massive and continuos transit expansion since mid-2000s. TYSSE, enhanced GO train frequencies, new subway cars / streetcars / buses, artic buses, expanded network of express buses, UPX, Cherry Street streetcar. In the pipeline: Eglinton Crosstown, SmartTrack, SSE, Finch West LRT.

It is easy to debate priorities and returns on the dollar, but hard to see nothing "sane" in all of that.

 

[Rainforest]

Well, sure you can walk along Wilson. It's excellent for anyone who enjoys ugly strip malls.

Strip malls are not ugly. They may be a bit boring, but you can buy some basic useful stuff there. You can't buy much at all if you are on the section of Yonge I mentioned, Lawrence to Hwy 401.

On top of that, Wilson has a very frequent bus service, while Yonge has just bus #97 that runs every 15 min at best. The subway stops are 2 km apart, so the said section is only "walkable" in the sense that you have to walk a lot to get to any transit at all

 

[pstogios]

Throwback Thursday
March 22, 2012

 

[pstogios]

We all need to accept that we have limited transit investment dollars and a growing population. If we continually allocate what little capital we have to projects that will move the fewest riders for the highest cost, then we shouldn't complain when mobility gets worse and worse. If we continually choose the wrong mode for a particular purpose, specifically tunnelled subway to low density areas fulfilling a function properly served by surface commuter rail, we shouldn't complain when we're incapable of funding anything like the transit we need. If we continually build the most transit to the lowest density sites on the grounds that some day in the future they'll have sufficient development, while we ignore already heavily developed sites like Liberty Village or Queen east of Carlaw, where commutes are already an absolute misery for tens of thousands of people, then we're idiots who pander to the worst in Ford-Nation suburban identity politics.

Here's the thing. Transit in Scarborough isn't about and was never about rational thinking like you just so eloquently laid out. As evidenced by GDB's transparent pandering (great find by salsa), transit in Scarborough is all about the "Respect for Scarborough" psychosis.

 

[LNahid2000]

Strip malls are not ugly. They may be a bit boring, but you can buy some basic useful stuff there. You can't buy much at all if you are on the section of Yonge I mentioned, Lawrence to Hwy 401.

On top of that, Wilson has a very frequent bus service, while Yonge has just bus #97 that runs every 15 min at best. The subway stops are 2 km apart, so the said section is only "walkable" in the sense that you have to walk a lot to get to any transit at all

Lol @ complaining about subway stops being 2km apart in a thread about an extension with 6km stop spacing.

Btw, Yonge between Lawrence and 401 probably has more walkable retail than the same distance away from Wilson Station.

 

[BurlOak]

I found it funny he voted Yes to study the design for the Lawrence stop. That should hint how tied he is to Smarttrack in the long run. If he wins the next election I could see him just letting it fade as GO RER proceeds as per the original plan. If the following plans of DRL, SSE and both Eglinton East and West LRT's proceed uninterrupted and have funds committed by election time he will have pretty good support. People elected him for less polarization and action. Whether we agree with his plan or not, he might offer the best chance for action this decade. The alternatives require pause, further studies, likely new EA's and a new start to the endless circle of rage and debate that our Politicians have made a custom.

If the SmartTrack West turned into a grade-separated LRT from Mount Dennis to Pearson, then maybe SmartTrack East can be turned into a grade-separate LRT from STC (or Malvern) to Downtown (or the Ex).

 

[syn]

Same logic of networks being built can be used for LRT. If the subway was on the RT corridor there wouldn't even be a great difference in cost compared to LRT.
The subway is not issue its Smart track and the excuse of the RT shutdown that has made it unreasonable.

I can't agree with that - the cost difference would've been significant, even though I agree the plan itself would've been a lot more sensible.

 

[syn]

We all need to accept that we have limited transit investment dollars and a growing population. If we continually allocate what little capital we have to projects that will move the fewest riders for the highest cost, then we shouldn't complain when mobility gets worse and worse. If we continually choose the wrong mode for a particular purpose, specifically tunnelled subway to low density areas fulfilling a function properly served by surface commuter rail, we shouldn't complain when we're incapable of funding anything like the transit we need. If we continually build the most transit to the lowest density sites on the grounds that some day in the future they'll have sufficient development, while we ignore already heavily developed sites like Liberty Village or Queen east of Carlaw, where commutes are already an absolute misery for tens of thousands of people, then we're idiots who pander to the worst in Ford-Nation suburban identity politics.

Well written.

The Yonge Line is already over capacity, yet we're building what will probably be close to a $5 billion one stop extension in Scarborough because people don't like making a transfer.

The next generation will look back and think "WTF?!!!!"

 

[micheal_can]

Well written.

The Yonge Line is already over capacity, yet we're building what will probably be close to a $5 billion one stop extension in Scarborough because people don't like making a transfer.

The next generation will look back and think "WTF?!!!!"

Kinda like this generation is ding about all the things cancelled of the past that would have made this city better?

 

[rbt]

How about how he is not willing to give up SmartTrack to fund the 3 stop extension, but instead keeping SmartTrack and reducing to a 1 stop extension? Would that be admitting defeat? Since having more stations for SmartTrack will acutally reduce ridership and increase congestion, diverting those extra stations and funds to the subway would be better.

What you're really talking about giving up is the Eglinton line western extension (which isn't actually funded), and downtown GO stops like Liberty Village.

SmartTrack funds, as far as improvements in the GO corridor through Scarborough, are quite a bit less in funds than what you need to add Lawrence to the subway.

 

[kEiThZ]

This has nothing to do with the subway, for me at least. I would never ever consider living at Scarborough Town Centre because it's not a walkable neighbourhood.

The person I was having this discussion with was talking about price. Not complaining about urbanity. My point was that for him, the tradeoff between lifestyle and price was non-existent. Nothing existed for him beyond the Yonge corridor and it's $700k 2BRs.

I agree that if you desire a walkable neighbourhood SC might not be it. On the flip side of this point though, is that a lot of people in Scarborough see the transformation in North York and think that the subway will bring such transformation to SC.

 

[kEiThZ]

Where are the urban, walkable areas in Scarborough?

To me this is a ridiculous assertion. Scarboorugh may not be as walkable as downtown but it's a hell of a lot more transit friendly than say Mississauga or Brampton or Markham. And the constant insinuation that Scarborough is basically a 905 tumor inserted into the 416 is annoying as f---.

 

[kEiThZ]

Even after eliminating 4 current RT stops for one giant 6KM (!!?!?!??!) extension, ridership isn't going to be anywhere near the busiest stations in the system.

In the RT's case, a lot of that ridership is very synthetic. And everybody who lives in Scarborough knows it. Go stand outside McCowan. Tell me how much walk-in traffic there is. It's all riders getting off the buses one stop early so they can get a seat. Then the bus turns right into SC after McCowan. Midland repeats this on the other side of SC. I see zero reason for these stops to exist.

In fact, even if it were LRT, it's patently ridiculous to have grade separation east of McCowan when the route parallels the 134 Progress. It's actually even worse for some riders, because there was no stop proposed at Markham ever. Instead, everyone will be expected to walk up that hill in winter to catch the LRT at Centennial.

As bad as the one stop is, the LRT plan seems to be driven by, "Let's just build a bunch of stops to justify LRT." No thought as to how riders actually using the existing system.

Ellesmere has a pathetic 1140 average daily ridership. This is half of Bessarion for crying out loud. Midland is 3020. Only beats Bessarion on the entire system. And that's with bus routes that feed them!

https://www.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/Subway_ridership_2012-2013.pdf

How the heck is it justifiable to keep these stations open and slow down tens of thousands of other riders a day, when their bus routes can continue to Lawrence or SC and reach in literally 2-4 more minutes? These stations don't even have enough ridership to justify their operating expenses.

 

[kEiThZ]

That is the model we should have been pushing for.

Your model is entirely contingent on the DRL reaching Sheppard AND all those LRTs being built. And we all know this is Toronto, where no subway plan is adhered to end-to-end and that money for other lines will mysteriously be cut short to make a balanced budget somewhere. So why should any voter put their trust in that proposal.

I certainly wouldn't. I don't think DRL Long will happen in my working life....or even my life, period.

 

[kEiThZ]

That would be an interesting compromise.

We allow this one-stop subway to happen, Scarborough wants it after all. In turn, Scarborough councillors do not get in downtown's way when it comes to approving bike lanes, transit malls, and raildeck parks.

But "muh car".

I'd go further. Add tolls.