Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[salsa]

NYMBY are everywhere, even along Pape Avenue. The city has to stop caving to them

The city could have handled that one better. They should have anticipated that Pape Ave residents would question why the subway station was not proposed on Carlaw instead, which is a wider road that also has bus service and condo development. But when the NIMBYs brought it up, the city was unable to explain why this alternative was not viable because they never even considered it. They looked at many possible alignments for other part of the relief line, but somehow they never questioned whether it made sense to build a subway under a tiny residential street instead of Carlaw Ave. So now we're wasting time and money studying the Carlaw alignment when that should have been done already.

 

[amnesiajune]

If only Bill Davis wasn't overthrown in a coup de tat

A coup d'etat? Even Stephen Harper didn't go that far in the 2008 coalition snafu.

$395 Million busway between Eglinton West and Toronto's western boundary

That's not terribly unrealistic. The Mississauga Transitway cost $259 million to build, and it's only 2 km shorter than the Eglinton West busway would've been (only counting the physically-separate transitway). The Ottawa Transitway was built in the 1980s for $500 million in total costs, and has twice as much separate lanes (28 km) as Eglinton West would've had.

 

[Hopkins123]

A coup d'etat? Even Stephen Harper didn't go that far in the 2008 coalition snafu.

I just meant that the Tories won a minority government but the NDP chose to back the Peterson Liberals instead and the rest is history. Here we are. No DRL, no completed Sheppard Line, Eglinton is only partially grade separated, still nothing for Malvern or Sherway. Plans aborted, dreams dashed.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

They did, but that's selection bias - a few projects were finished because people dealt with it, but many were abandoned because people refused to. Remember this?

Sure, your point being? I don't have the slightest hesitation condemning the shortsightness of Layton's hand in this (and his end goal was to prevent densification, not getting a subway built and be NIMBY at the same time) - in fact, I am doubly intent on it should anyone try to do the same with this round of DRL planning. And besides, why stop at 1985 if you want to deal with selection bias - a good chunk of Yonge and BD is built via expropriation and cut and cover - are you saying you are willing to match that level of intrusion? They sucked it up smack in the middle of the core - with streetcar service being affected in full or part on top at that.

The city could have handled that one better. They should have anticipated that Pape Ave residents would question why the subway station was not proposed on Carlaw instead, which is a wider road that also has bus service and condo development. But when the NIMBYs brought it up, the city was unable to explain why this alternative was not viable because they never even considered it. They looked at many possible alignments for other part of the relief line, but somehow they never questioned whether it made sense to build a subway under a tiny residential street instead of Carlaw Ave. So now we're wasting time and money studying the Carlaw alignment when that should have been done already.

Honestly big deal - why should alignment be dictated by a few residents?

AoD

 

[salsa]

Honestly big deal - why should alignment be dictated by a few residents?

I don't care about the residents as much as whether the alignment is actually the best one. As I said, Carlaw has more density, development potential and connects to a bus route. From a construction standpoint it's also an easier location to build since the road is much wider. If city staff conclude that a Carlaw alignment is not actually better or that it's not feasible, then I can accept that. But they should have already studied both of the options to at least have some real answers for area residents, instead of only doing it in reaction to complaints that should have been easily anticipated. Based on my talks with the consultants, they seemed pretty anal about making sure that the tunnel goes in a straight line as much as possible, therefore they entirely ignored Carlaw with all it's advantages as a possible option.

 

[crs1026]

$500 Million Sheppard Subway between Yonge and Victoria Park (actual cost: $1 Billion)

$565 Million DRL between Union and Pape

$395 Million busway between Eglinton West and Toronto's western boundary

How I wish these prices were real...

The escalation in the Sheppard Subway cost isn't surprising considering inflation rates in the 1985-2000 period. By the time Sheppard was under construction, other big projects such as Skydome and Darlington Nuclear were stressing construction labour and material costs. Prices and inflation have really moderated since then - a single year's delay meant huge cost increases.

- Paul

 

[44 North]

They did, but that's selection bias - a few projects were finished because people dealt with it, but many were abandoned because people refused to. Remember this?

I see no mention of construction issues in that article, those "people" you refer to, or anything related to what AoD wrote. So I'm not sure how this proves whatever point it is you're trying to make.

If anything the article provides a good example of politicization of expert recommendations, a schism between metro council members and elected city council, and bloc voting. Eglinton went from a 5th place light rail line or subway to 2nd place (with the busway skipped entirely); Relief line got dropped from 2nd place to an undefined future (despite having support from Toronto, East York, and Toronto's mayor); then later Eglinton got upgraded to full subway and bumped to 1st priority (coincidentally to the riding of a political affiliate of Layton's that would later become the premier who funded the project). To ignore these points but accuse others of "selective bias" in your steady stream of anti-Toronto posts is a bit odd.

Honestly big deal - why should alignment be dictated by a few residents?

Agreed. But there's quite a volume of properties, so maybe the City's decision is a bit more sensible than straight up kowtowing. Afaik the design for twin bore tunnels means the entire section from about Riverdale Av to Eastern would've encroached within the property lines along the narrow 18m wide stretch of Pape. This would be like a couple hundred properties, and not just at stations or curves. Not sure how difficult the process of obtaining numerous subsurface property rights/easements is, but perhaps the City genuinely believes the 20m-wide Carlaw to have some unstudied construction advantages.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

$500 Million Sheppard Subway between Yonge and Victoria Park (actual cost: $1 Billion)

$565 Million DRL between Union and Pape

$395 Million busway between Eglinton West and Toronto's western boundary

How I wish these prices were real...

Why was the Eglinton busway so expensive relative to the subway projects?

 

[amnesiajune]

I see no mention of construction issues in that article, those "people" you refer to, or anything related to what AoD wrote. So I'm not sure how this proves whatever point it is you're trying to make.

Three examples of projects, one which was never built because the neighbourhood didn't want it, one which was never built because the neighbourhood wanted more, and a third which was bungled because the rest of the city wasn't too thrilled with it - Metro first agreed to build the Sheppard subway from Yonge to Vic Park, then cancelled it, then revived it only as far as Don Mills, then cancelled the subway but agreed to build the tunnels. Now, 2o years later, we've accepted that the tunnel to Victoria Park should've been built originally and just deciding which train will go in that tunnel. That's Toronto transit politics in a nutshell.

Why was the Eglinton busway so expensive relative to the subway projects?

At least in part because it's twice as long. The busway would've been 14 kilometers long, and I assume that part of it (east of Keele where the ROW isn't wide enough) would've been underground. The Sheppard subway would've been 7.5 km long and the DRL would've been 5.5 km long.

 

[44 North]

Three examples of projects, one which was never built because the neighbourhood didn't want it, one which was never built because the neighbourhood wanted more, and a third which was bungled because the rest of the city wasn't too thrilled with it - Metro first agreed to build the Sheppard subway from Yonge to Vic Park, then cancelled it, then revived it only as far as Don Mills, then cancelled the subway but agreed to build the tunnels. Now, 2o years later, we've accepted that the tunnel to Victoria Park should've been built originally and just deciding which train will go in that tunnel. That's Toronto transit politics in a nutshell.

Huh? This Goldilocks interpretation of history isn't true.

 

[WislaHD]

At this rate, we could fund the entire city's portion of the Relief Line through SSE funds.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

At this rate, we could fund the entire city's portion of the Relief Line through SSE funds.

Probably not - RL hasn't been seriously costed out yet - it will be expensive.

AoD

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Is this the death of the Eglinton East LRT?

 

[OneCity]

Is this the death of the Eglinton East LRT?

No. The Eglinton LRT is stil being designed and has been unfunded for some time.

It will be part of an upcoming election and may be what separates Tory from Ford in Scarborough. The Feds will pay half and no matter what happens with the subway cost, id be shocked if we didn't see this line funded if the subway continues to proceed. This extension has massive support , including many Business, Political and Academic leaders in Scarborough. It may even be the right price vs. support and optics for the broke ass Liberals to throw a bone. Especially with Sheppard Ave. funding sitting in the long term disability line.

 

[jje1000]

I hope not.