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Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

So first you've gotten approval to re-assess an above-ground alignment to save money. Second, in June you've got ridership numbers coming out that will show how various Stouffville RER / SmartTrack headways will impact a subway (surface or otherwise).

So the logic flows that they'll say, well a subway above ground is much cheaper for 1 stop, so lets do that. Then if the ridership shows that its woefully under subway threshold, it provides the perfect opportunity to slot back in talk of Mk3s on an upgraded RT.

Particularly if people are still actively studying the viability of the concept.
 
Okay, I'd like you to take a second and read the post I made so you'll see I agree with you.

Sorry I read your post as sarcasm initially. Multitasking :) You made some great points but I seemed to have accidentally provoked some frustration.

Ill try to answer your questions..

First: if Scarborough has been neglected, post the numbers. Show budget numbers that contrast investment per capita in the four wards. (Hint - Scarborough gets its share of the city budget. It costs a lot to maintain those long roads, and those long sewer pipes and to send people out on patrols). Capital & maintenance budgets are 2 separate animals & cant be lumped as like for like. I can only look at the legacy the City has built at this point. It's certainly going to cost more in capital to bring our suburbs up to or connected to the same level of transit enjoyed elsewhere in the City which is long overdue. Our suburbs are not only connected poorly to the City there is no effective business plan. to promote, invest as per 905. Thats an issues as well.

Second, when you say "Your DRL is only one part of the equation & not our priority." You're 1. wrong about whose DRL it is, wrong about who I am (I live west of University. I just don't take jobs on the Yonge line. It isn't "my" DRL). Those folks at Yonge and Bloor hoping to get on a train? They've been accumulating since STC. They mostly come from far out east. It is *your* DRL, too. If you want to do other than move the suckage from Kennedy to Yonge, it's yours, too.

I corrected that. Again apologies not personal. The actual commuting benefits are needed and will be shared greatly once we connect our Suburbs efficiently. But transit also is a big driver of investment so it not our number #1 priority without being connected & most here refuse to even use public transit. Again build the DRL but it's not an either or with the current state of the City's public transit.


My first question is, does that chip on your shoulder make you incapable of seeing that?
Again. I misread initially & have always said I see the need for the DRL

Third, my point was not, actually, to you. You have, in spite of your self, managed to convince me there's something at stake other than common sense and wise allocation of money (which advocate for the LRT network). It isn't even your blathering anger and unsupported assertions that Scarborough doesn't get its share of the city budget. It's that the damn SRT SUCKS. Which means that even if the cost is a billion, two billion more to serve fewer people, we're going to have to build it. Any discussion one the SRT is going to have to accept that, and make the best we can starting, not with a blank slate, but with the idea that there is going to be an extension of line 2. Oddly, your anger has gotten to be so bad that you can't even see when people agree with you.
I never mentioned the budget share. I advocate for fixing the past mistakes and integrating fairly. That will cost money for all. And should be considered "fair share".

Now, you want to go for the "Well, sure Ford smoked cracked, screwed scarborough over, but we'd vote for him even though he's dead because all politicians lie", which is called a "false equivalence". Look into it.
Ive never voted for a Ford but I can certainly see why he was voted in. And ill take a crack smoker with fair Politics that acknowledges the neglected over a Polite, well mannered snakeskin who is out for his lobbyist 1st .

Unfortunately due to the nature of the beast we haven't seen a polite well mannered Politician who will stand up and represent the neglected & the people over the lobbyist. Will it come? Hopefully Fords "Bull in a China shop" helped paved the way for someone to come along with less resistance and much more tact.. but I highly doubt it.
 
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Talking to coffey or talking to a brick wall is the same damn thing. Nothing that is ever said here will change his/her talking points.

Wow. I understand I have passionate & differing points of view from many who post here & please feel free to debate me when you disagree. But please don't bait, troll or get directly personal.
 
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So the logic flows that they'll say, well a subway above ground is much cheaper for 1 stop, so lets do that. Then if the ridership shows that its woefully under subway threshold, it provides the perfect opportunity to slot back in talk of Mk3s on an upgraded RT..

Nothing like watching politicians writhe around looking for a way past the elephant in the room.

First shift - hey, we would save money if we put it above ground. But we still want you to have a subway, Scarboro.
Second shift - hey, given the ridership projections, we would save money if we used shorter trains and had people transfer at Kennedy. But we still want you to have a subway, Scarboro.
Third shift - hey, if we are going to have shorter trains, we could save money if we lower the platform level and use a different sort of subway train than we use on Line 2. But we still want you to have a subway, Scarboro.
Fourth shift - hey, if we are using a low floor subway car for this new subway, we could save money by delivering the power from overhead instead of third rail. But we still want you to have a subway, Scarboro.

Now we just need someone to develop a fantasy paint scheme for the Outlooks that has big block letters (like the car ad wraps) reading "THIS IS A SUBWAY".

We do love ya, Scarboro.

- Paul
 
Considering that tunnelling itself is many times more expensive than at grade I think regardless of what radius is required, it would be much cheaper than tunnelling.

For sure. Eliminating even 1.5 km of tunnelling can save us $300 Million+, while allowing us to add in additional stations. The tighter curve radius would just allow us to squeeze even more money out of this project.

The other fatal flaw of this proposal that the TTC keeps harping about is lack of right-of-way allowanced on the RT corridor for subway-width vehicles. I don't see why this has to be a fatal flaw. We've expropriated dozens of properties for subway projects before, including Crosstown, and the corridor would need to be widened by only a few metres. Nothing would have to be expropriated between Eglinton and Lawrence. Between Lawrence and Ellesmere, a small sliver (a few metres) of about a dozen properties on the west side of the RT corridor would need to be expropriated to fit the subway. Almost all of these properties are using that space for parking, so it's not as if there's a major physical barrier in the way. Looking at Google Earth, there are 3 or 4 properties that might need part of their building (all single story buildings) to be demolished.

I hope the TTC isn't seriously going to tell us that parking spaces, and three single-story buildings are going to stand between us and improve transit service. We can spend $100 to $150 Million per km expropriating these properties before it becomes uneconomical. That should be more than enough money to expropriate a few metres from each property.

As for STC, they could either tunnel down or they can go elevated simply by replacing the existing structures, though I'm not sure about the popularity of that and there will be a transit gap along that corridor as its getting rebuilt.

I've never really understood why the SRT needed to be elevated along the Ellesmere corridor anyways.
 
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Really now. Something new. The only Politician to have lied Rob Ford? What Politician doesn't lie? LOL.

Does that narrative really only apply to your favorite Politician? Take Ford's personal issues out of the picture for a minute & just compare the Political Campaign promises of Tory's Platform vs. what Ford campaigned on. Who was lying more? Whether you agree with his politics or not I would say Ford stuck hard to his campaign and stayed true much greater than most Politician's. of course until his personal issues came out & he unraveled but by that time the tone had already changed. Guess what that's NO LIE.

I didn't vote for Ford at the time because I was fairly new to the City (3 years) & didn't understand the real issues with Toronto's suburban investment neglect at the time, Ford's personality kind of appalled me. Aside from his LGBT stance & some questionable quotes he wore directly on his sleeve for all to judge, his Politics are certainly much more inclusive for helping the undeserved areas with actual investment & not a bunch of "feel good" acknowledgments, community housing double downs, patch programs on neglected areas & photo-op's which do nothing to invest or change the actual landscape & underlying problems that drive investment long term.

But who is listening & actually helping the Suburbs? Oh ya your "honest" Politician who is all about funneling money in to the middle & uses the vast financial, media propaganda means to convince people with "facts" & "data". When the reality is they pick and choose the facts the work to fit their narrative & use repetitive slant to MISLEAD voters as you say.

For god sake build an inclusive City that doesn't segregate citizens on transit. Quit ignoring the FACTS of what technology has already been built in this City & is still being built in even less populated areas. Quit ignoring the facts that quality transit drives investment, & creates wealth.

A lying Politician. lol. Cmon man. Hopefully sooner or later someone with similar Politics and & much more controlled personal life comes along to stand up for the left behind with more "lies" as you call them
You're the one making this personal. Scarborough had a viable transit option that had little opposition. Ford scared people into thinking the streets would be torn up and clogged with slow "streetcars". That is a lie and that is misleading. If any other politician's lie cost me something I could have benefitted from, I'd be pissed off too.
 
Really now. Something new. The only Politician to have lied Rob Ford? What Politician doesn't lie? LOL.

Does that narrative really only apply to your favorite Politician? Take Ford's personal issues out of the picture for a minute & just compare the Political Campaign promises of Tory's Platform vs. what Ford campaigned on. Who was lying more? Whether you agree with his politics or not I would say Ford stuck hard to his campaign and stayed true much greater than most Politician's. of course until his personal issues came out & he unraveled but by that time the tone had already changed. Guess what that's NO LIE.

I didn't vote for Ford at the time because I was fairly new to the City (3 years) & didn't understand the real issues with Toronto's suburban investment neglect at the time, Ford's personality kind of appalled me. Aside from his LGBT stance & some questionable quotes he wore directly on his sleeve for all to judge, his Politics are certainly much more inclusive for helping the undeserved areas with actual investment & not a bunch of "feel good" acknowledgments, community housing double downs, patch programs on neglected areas & photo-op's which do nothing to invest or change the actual landscape & underlying problems that drive investment long term.

But who is listening & actually helping the Suburbs? Oh ya your "honest" Politician who is all about funneling money in to the middle & uses the vast financial, media propaganda means to convince people with "facts" & "data". When the reality is they pick and choose the facts the work to fit their narrative & use repetitive slant to MISLEAD voters as you say.

For god sake build an inclusive City that doesn't segregate citizens on transit. Quit ignoring the FACTS of what technology has already been built in this City & is still being built in even less populated areas. Quit ignoring the facts that quality transit drives investment, & creates wealth.

A lying Politician. lol. Cmon man. Hopefully sooner or later someone with similar Politics and & much more controlled personal life comes along to stand up for the left behind with more "lies" as you call them

Man you are some kind of delusional. And a hall of fame-level persecution complex to boot.
 
You're the one making this personal. Scarborough had a viable transit option that had little opposition. Ford scared people into thinking the streets would be torn up and clogged with slow "streetcars". That is a lie and that is misleading. If any other politician's lie cost me something I could have benefitted from, I'd be pissed off too.

This apparently should be posted once a page in here:


Scarborough residents' anger is completely misplaced. Instead of the downtown Illuminati or whatever it should be directed towards Councillors De Baeremaeker and Cho for royally screwing them over and depriving them of a transit line that would be finished and operating by now. How they get off the hook is baffling. Too many Scarborough residents are just looking for an excuse to hate on Old Toronto.
 
You're the one making this personal. Scarborough had a viable transit option that had little opposition. Ford scared people into thinking the streets would be torn up and clogged with slow "streetcars". That is a lie and that is misleading. If any other politician's lie cost me something I could have benefitted from, I'd be pissed off too.

I didn't personally attack the poster. I attacked the posters comment & argued the point that Rob Ford was not be the only lying Politician. Yes Ford clearly lied numerous but to single him out as a liar in a pool of liars is absurd. Id argued he was even firmer on his campaign promises than most Politicians. Even I don't agree with some of his platform. But you clearly knew what you were getting with him & in a pool mostly full of silver spoon Politicians out to feed their lobbyists friends, his theme of protecting the "little guy" is somewhat refreshing. As our current Politics has disfranchised many voters.

Ford tapped into the disconnect. The Political slogans surely attracted a few extra voters & this is no different than "hope" slogans which attracts a certain type of voter. But it's just Politics & doesn't represent the people as much as the acknowledgment of neglect which was greater than any other Politician to this date. The LRT option was viable because it wasn't compared to the alternative. But you only get to vote on the issues and plans on the table.

Ford was Polarizing figure & a bi-product of neglect that was tapped into. Not a direct reflection of the people but the frustration of not being represented. The City has a suburban economic growth problem & has not paid proper attention or invested properly to address it. Connecting to equitable Transit is only one issue to begin to fix this But it's very important as seen by the map.

We need to connect the City in a fair manner & quit looking for "facts" why not too.
 

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This apparently should be posted once a page in here:


Scarborough residents' anger is completely misplaced. Instead of the downtown Illuminati or whatever it should be directed towards Councillors De Baeremaeker and Cho for royally screwing them over and depriving them of a transit line that would be finished and operating by now. How they get off the hook is baffling. Too many Scarborough residents are just looking for an excuse to hate on Old Toronto.

I love old Toronto beautiful place full of money, growth and transit infrastructure. Personally Id prefer a subway 2026 over a LRT in 2016. Cheaper, easier & poorly integrated is not the legacy needed in Scarborough.
 
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Continuing east from Kennedy and looping back to to SRT corridor is something the TTC is considering. That would not require a Kennedy rebuilt 1.5 km of that line would be above ground. The question right now is how large that curve radius would need to be, and how much tunnelling it would require.
Considering ... sure ... you've always got to include one or two just completely out-there, in a list of alternatives. Kind of like heavy-rail on Eglinton East.

By the time you've got that curve constructed to back and daylight along the SRT corridor, you aren't that far on the surface, before you have to go down again, for the Ellesmere curve (likely so far south, that Ellesmere station is gone.

It's potentially possible I suppose, but I'd think going up Midland or Brinkley, would have little more tunnel, and be cheaper over-all.
 

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