Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[44 North]

And another thing I’d like to add on about the lack of quality renders / depictions / artist’s conceptions is for the S(L)RT. I don’t think I’ve ever seen an image of how it would look - either with the new LRVs, or the guideway extension. It’s expected that those in Scarborough should know that the plan wasn’t for in-median LRT (i.e ‘streetcars tearing up roads’), but I can’t blame people when there were no attractive visual representations to present the plan. Not even our mayor knew what the plan was.

Other than the underground Crosstown, I think there’s been a poor PR job to advertise and promote TC or its SLRT component.

 

[rbt]

hate to get too picky....but here goes.

Good points. I guess I should have said "being considered" or a different term like that.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

My critique of the paper by Sorensen and Hess, recently reviewed on Spacing:

This paper makes three major mistakes, and those mistakes largely invalidate its conclusions.

1) The authors propose a new version of the trunk LRT line in Scarborough (they call it “Malvern LRT”), that would run from the Ellesmere SmartTrack station to STC and then to Malvern. Thus, STC will no longer have a direct connection to Bloor-Danforth subway, and a lot of riders will be brought to SmartTrack instead.

STC would still connect to the SRT.

2) The paper excludes 75% of Scarborough residents from its benefit analysis. The largest number of residents within the “accessible area” in any of their options is 143,500; while the total population of Scarborough is more than 600,000.

Many of residents not living in the “accessible area” will benefit more from SmartTrack and Scarborough Subway than from LRTs. Those people will have to take a bus in any case, but after that, they will prefer to transfer to a faster high-order transit.

Some weight in the modeling should be given to those residents and their interests. However, this factor is totally ignored in the paper.

Not true. 50% of trips starting within Scarborough end in Scarborough. Only 13% are headed downtown. The vast majority of Scarborough trips will not benefit from the Subway.

Scarborough's #1 transit need isn't a downtown express line; it's to improve transit within Scarborough. The subway proposal does almost nothing in that regard.

Furthermore, there is SmartTrack 2km east of the proposed Line 2 alignment.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

And the SELRT...is that even happening anymore? The Prov was quick to sign an MOU to divert funding to Eglinton. Will they do the same if Tory sits down with them to fund SmartTrack? And if the SELRT is still alive and kicking, then it should be promoted a helluva a lot more than it is. There’s seemingly no official site, or any official renders to show people how it will look. And even when it was promoted during the TC era, the renders weren’t very good. IIRC it was a white/grey LRV poorly stitched onto a low-quality photo of the existing street. For a project costing in excess of a billion dollarydoos, they can do better than that.

We should hear news on SELRT shortly. IIRC, a request for proposal was put out in late 2014.

 

[Rainforest]

STC would still connect to the SRT.

Did you have a chance to read the paper?

1) They do not use term SRT; they call it "Malvern LRT" and assume it will run "from the Ellesmere SmartTrack Station to Scarborough Town Centre, Centennial College, and Malvern Town Centre". That's on Page 26.

2) They said that the corridor between Kennedy and Ellesmere will not be wide enough for LRT (also on Page 26).

Thus, STC would not be connected to Kennedy station and Bloor-Danforth subway. Instead, their "Malvern LRT" would carry all its riders to SmartTrack.

Not true. 50% of trips starting within Scarborough end in Scarborough. Only 13% are headed downtown.

I said that 75% of Scarborough residents will not be in the "accessible area" of the 3 LRT lines. That is true.

Your statement is also correct, but it answers a different question and does not disprove my point.

Even with the 3 LRT lines in place, many trips within Scarborough will be made entirely or partly by bus.

The vast majority of Scarborough trips will not benefit from the Subway.

Scarborough's #1 transit need isn't a downtown express line; it's to improve transit within Scarborough. The subway proposal does almost nothing in that regard.

It is wrong to compare a single subway line with 3 LRT lines. The subway replaces only 1 LRT line.

The subway can facilitate trips to other parts of the city; not only downtown, but also midtown and southern Etobicoke. Two LRT lines, on Sheppard and on Eglinton / Kingston / Morningside, still can be built and will provide a similar local coverage.

 

[Rainforest]

Frequency and train size are a function of funding. 12-car double-deck trains running every 5 minutes are possible (LakeShore West achieves this today during small periods of time) with sufficient funding (Union is a problem, but a $3B tunnel with several stations through downtown would fix that). This is massive capacity that would fit well within the combined SCC and DRL budgets. Question remains, would it work as well; I suspect not but I also don't think that'll stop Tory from proposing it as a cost savings measure, nor is it a bad idea.

That's all true. A downtown rail tunnel would move SmartTrack to a different class altogether, and open possibilities that are not viable with the surface version of SmartTrack.

However, it does not look like the downtown rail tunnel is coming in the near future.

Some transit analysts (not just the hobbyists on this forum; some salaried experts seem to be affected as well) tend to forget that, and create schemes that assign heavy passenger volumes to SmartTrack, while its surface version cannot handle such volumes. That makes me a little concerned.

 

[Electrify]

Side topic, but does anyone know what came first: Midland station or the A&P paper recycling facility? I ask because I'm currently reading up on nuisance laws in my urban planning program, and that stench it produces could be a direct violation of them.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

It is wrong to compare a single subway line with 3 LRT lines. The subway replaces only 1 LRT line.

No it's not. For the price of the currently approved plans, you could build 1 RER + 3 LRT lines in Scarborough. This is why the comparison is being made

The subway can facilitate trips to other parts of the city; not only downtown, but also midtown and southern Etobicoke.

Okay. Can't the SLRT and SmartTrack do the same? In fact, I'd bet that SmartTrack would make those trips quite a bit faster.

Also, it can't be stressed enough how insignificant trips to midtown and Etobicoke are. Only 3% of trips originating in Scarborough are to midtown. The percentage of trips going to south Etobicoke is so insignificant that there isn't any data on it; all we can say is that less than 2% of trips coming from Scarborough are to southern Etobicoke. To spend billions of dollars to improve trips to these areas, while doing nothing to improve the 50% of trips that start and end in Scarborough seems foolish to me.

Also, how would the Line 2 extension help with trips to midtown? For that we have the ECLRT.

 

[Rainforest]

No it's not. For the price of the currently approved plans, you could build 1 RER + 3 LRT lines in Scarborough. This is why the comparison is being made

Sheppard LRT is already funded, why do you need to fund it 2-nd time?

Okay. Can't the SLRT and SmartTrack do the same? In fact, I'd bet that SmartTrack would make those trips quite a bit faster.

SmartTrack will not have enough capacity. It can serve some of those trips, but not all.

Also, it can't be stressed enough how insignificant trips to midtown and Etobicoke are. Only 3% of trips originating in Scarborough are to midtown. The percentage of trips going to south Etobicoke is so insignificant that there isn't any data on it; all we can say is that less than 2% of trips coming from Scarborough are to southern Etobicoke.

You have to count the combined number of trips served by the subway and it extension. The existing SRT carries about 4,500 at peak hour and is over capacity. TTC has to run supplemental buses between STC and Kennedy. All those people are going somewhere these days. Their number is not insignificant.

To spend billions of dollars to improve trips to these areas, while doing nothing to improve the 50% of trips that start and end in Scarborough seems foolish to me.

Here we go again. What makes you think that building a subway will result in no other LRT lines being built in Scarborough?

 

[UD2]

Is any work that's actually being done on the line 2 extension? Or is Tory simply dragging his feet on the matter until his smart track solution is complete so he can maybe avoid doing it all together. It seems that the SRT rebuilds are going to buy us another decade to hopefully put off this folly.

At one point we have to acknowledge that bring what's there to a state of good repair is the more cost effective option.

 

[nfitz]

Is any work that's actually being done on the line 2 extension? Or is Tory simply dragging his feet on the matter until his smart track solution is complete so he can maybe avoid doing it all together. It seems that the SRT rebuilds are going to buy us another decade to hopefully put off this folly.

At one point we have to acknowledge that bring what's there to a state of good repair is the more cost effective option.

Essentially they are doing all the studies this year to finalize the alignment and stations.

See the process page on the project website.

www.scarboroughsubwayextension.ca/the-process.html

 

[interchange42]

Press Release from today:

TTC’s Line 3 Scarborough undergoes vehicle and system overhaul

The Toronto Transit Commission is embarking on an aggressive vehicle and rail overhaul maintenance plan to improve service reliability on Line 3 Scarborough over the next 10 years. Approaching its thirtieth anniversary on March 22, the Scarborough RT, as it is commonly known, has reached the end of its designed life expectancy. The line will be decommissioned following the opening of the Scarborough Subway, a planned extension of Line 2 Bloor-Danforth.

To mark the anniversary on Sunday, the TTC will unveil two newly wrapped trains which have been overhauled with a durable vinyl exterior finish as an alternative to paint and body work (see photos attached). The design ties into the new approach to subway line numbers and colours to help customers navigate the system.

Over the next few months, the interior will also see a complete make-over, with new finishes on floors and walls, and a new seating configuration to provide better wheelchair access.

Line 3 is scheduled to close on the weekends of April 25-26 and May 2-3 as crews work to refurbish tracks and signals on the line.

 

[christiesplits]

I think the map adorned along the top makes the vehicles go from fun to cheesy.

 

[nfitz]

I think the map adorned along the top makes the vehicles go from fun to cheesy.

I'd say it goes from dull to interesting. And it's harmless.

 

[DonValleyRainbow]

At least it looks clean.