Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[ehlow]

Hmm. Even though I am a big supporter of the original SLRT plan, and am doubtful that the Scarb Subway is even going to be built in the end - I feel like the planned extension gets an unnecessary bad rap. Matt Elliott makes some great points, and I think it’s almost guaranteed we’ll be seeing major cost creep. But there are issues surrounding the Scarb Subway that can’t be easily quantified: namely, the socio-psychological issues surrounding Scarboro’s connectivity to the 416. They felt shafted with the SRT. And with a subways u/c or planned for the 905, the situation obviously hasn’t improved. Worsened would be more like it.

I support elevated light RT through our suburban realm, but I’ll agree the Scarb Subway does have its merits. The biggest one IMO is that its acts as a peace offering, and reduces the chances of a Ford getting re-elected.



Ah, thanks for clarifying that. I wasn’t sure.

***
And thanks to others for the nice words about my Flexity LRV doodle. The next batch of designs are a bit zany. I had a flu, and perhaps was delirious when I was obsessively trying out colour schemes. I know it doesn't really belong in this thread, but I didn't know where else to put it.
-The first one is the new SRT blue (but rather than solid, has the window section as black).
-Second is if Line 4 were converted to LRT and painted to its purple line colour.
-Third is if Line 5 (aka the orange line, aka Crosstown) and SLRT were interlined (hence the orange and blue).
-The green LRV uses Metrolinx’s two-tone colour scheme (tho not as a copy of the design on the GO train/bus fleet, which didn’t look as nice IMO).
-Then we have the Tube colours.
-A Canadian flag, which I thought fits well within the five LRV segments. Perhaps for 2067 bicentennial?
-And after reading Nesbitt’s post which aptly compared the SRT stripe design to the German ICE, I thought of TPS’ old blue and red striped squad car paint job. Just for fun.
-Oh yeah, and the last one is KW’s ION.

View attachment 42204

Ha ha. Love this, old school NYC subway graffiti.

It would be cool to see a 3-car train but fully orange for the Eglinton Crosstown. I guess it wouldn't work if any other LRT lines are built since the vehicles would have to be shared, but it would look cool.

I guess it would be similar to Boston where the trains are painted the colour of the line.

Imagine if the streetcar lines had themed cars too? The Spadina streetcars could have dragons for a Chinatown theme or something.. ha ha.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Do you like scaring the children?

 

[Transportfan]

Having short-turn trains operating east of Kennedy on Line 2 would mean less frequent trains. May not be acceptable to some. However, from this link, reduced service on "branches", which this would be, is acceptable in other jurisdictions. This is a description of the Washington Metro's headways:

Couldn't you have just pasted the link instead of actually quoting US material on a Toronto subway thread? Can't we avoid American influence anywhere??

 

[Electrify]

In retrospect, it makes you wonder: In hindsight, would we have been better off going with Ford's memorandum with the province? Yes Eglinton East would have been tunneled rather than at grade (or even elevated), but the corridor would have remained as light rail, and more reliable to boot since its weakest link would have been removed.

Sheppard and Finch would have been lost, but seeing as they are losing political support anyways...

 

[smallspy]

In retrospect, it makes you wonder: In hindsight, would we have been better off going with Ford's memorandum with the province? Yes Eglinton East would have been tunneled rather than at grade (or even elevated), but the corridor would have remained as light rail, and more reliable to boot since its weakest link would have been removed.

And would the City have been expected to pay for the cost of burying the line, along with the maintenance of the tunnel as well?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

 

[Electrify]

And would the City have been expected to pay for the cost of burying the line, along with the maintenance of the tunnel as well?

Dan
Toronto, Ont.

The money to bury the Eglinton East section would have come from the money earmarked for the Finch and Sheppard light rail lines (which also begs the question, if those lines lose all support, what would happen to that money?). Yes the tunnel maintenance costs would increase, but considering the economies of scale, it would likely not be all that much more than what needs to be spent on the midtown portion.

 

[BurlOak]

In retrospect, it makes you wonder: In hindsight, would we have been better off going with Ford's memorandum with the province? Yes Eglinton East would have been tunneled rather than at grade (or even elevated), but the corridor would have remained as light rail, and more reliable to boot since its weakest link would have been removed.

Sheppard and Finch would have been lost, but seeing as they are losing political support anyways...

Well Duh!

For most people it does not require hindsight because much of this was easily foreseen.

From the MOU.

Metrolinx shall be responsible for securing environmental approvals, structuring, designing, coordinating, planning, constructing and implementing the EglintonScarborough Crosstown LRT Project.

The Project shall include all infrastructure normally associated with the operation of a transit service, including rolling stock, stations, maintenance and storage facilities, rail and signal systems.

Even better, Toronto would not have been on the hook for running the line.

 

[44 North]

Maybe that's a problem in Toronto. For 4 years, the purpose of transit has been to defeat Ford (and also to get the Liberals a majority) and not to provide a fast reliable connection between parts of Toronto. With this goal, it is obvious why things became so chaotic.

And the funny thing is, the biggest reason Ford didn't win the last election is not because of the transit manipulation by Council and the province - it was because of drug use. I would suspect that if we had continued to try to build transit to serve people, then Ford would still have self-imploded and not won re-election. (unless of course Ford was a tea toadler and it was the Stintz back stab that knocked him off the wagon).

I don’t think the purpose or goal was to ‘defeat Ford’. Or at least it mostly wasn’t. We had finite capital, and using all of it to extend the underground portion of the Crosstown through the Golden Mile didn’t make much sense. Elevated, maybe - but that was never an option. And after the MOU, the debates about using all potential (but nonexistent) future funding revolved around a heavy rail underground extension of Sheppard – which I also don’t see as wise. Obviously politics did play some role in decisions; but being opposed to these multi-Billion dollar projects is pretty logical. Trouncing Ford was merely incidental.

Personally, I believe there are only two projects at the moment that I think are worth the ultra-high cost of being built entirely underground: the Scarb Subway (for the non-quantitative reasons pertaining to Scarb’s connectedness to the 416), and a complete DRL (or something to akin to it). I still very much support the S(L)RT plan, but the Scarb Subway definitely has its merits.

But my post was referring more specifically to the SRT situation. It's really the only opportunity that we’ve had for an affordable, grade-separated (i.e “fast and reliableâ€) subway-like rapid transit line. And IMO the biggest reason Rob didn't win the election is because he wasn't in the running.

It would be cool to see a 3-car train but fully orange for the Eglinton Crosstown. I guess it wouldn't work if any other LRT lines are built since the vehicles would have to be shared, but it would look cool.

I guess it would be similar to Boston where the trains are painted the colour of the line.

Imagine if the streetcar lines had themed cars too? The Spadina streetcars could have dragons for a Chinatown theme or something.. ha ha.

And in ‘Frisco the system of legacy streetcars is all sorts of colours. I’m not really advocating a mishmash of all colours like over there, but some occasional themes would be cool. We’ve done it with a few cars in the eighties for Ontario’s bicentennial, and Toronto’s sesquicentennial: http://transit.toronto.on.ca/streetcar/4011.shtml

Now you got me thinking about making a dragon-themed streetcar, haha.

 

[Dan416]

I fully support the Danforth subway extension, but I thought linking the SRT to the Eglinton line would have been a fine approach as well.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

In retrospect, it makes you wonder: In hindsight, would we have been better off going with Ford's memorandum with the province? Yes Eglinton East would have been tunneled rather than at grade (or even elevated), but the corridor would have remained as light rail, and more reliable to boot since its weakest link would have been removed.

Sheppard and Finch would have been lost, but seeing as they are losing political support anyways...

Looking at Eglinton Line in isolation, clearly the Ford MOU was the superior plan. But when also considering that we'd lose Finch and Sheppard, I think we made the right decision.

 

[44 North]

Why the heck did Metrolinx, or the Prov, or Ford not try to get an elevated Eglinton East? It would’ve made so much more sense! The line wouldn’t even have to be completely elevated...just as long as the route avoided intersections. There’d be huge cost savings, and people would’ve supported it. And it probably could’ve gotten the DRL Phase One study to include the crucial bit b/n Danforth and Eglinton.

Why Metrolinx supported a Ford/McGuinty subway on Eglinton East, but are indifferent towards the DRL...makes no sense.

 

[Electrify]

Why the heck did Metrolinx, or the Prov, or Ford not try to get an elevated Eglinton East? It would’ve made so much more sense! The line wouldn’t even have to be completely elevated...just as long as the route avoided intersections. There’d be huge cost savings, and people would’ve supported it. And it probably could’ve gotten the DRL Phase One study to include the crucial bit b/n Danforth and Eglinton.

Why Metrolinx supported a Ford/McGuinty subway on Eglinton East, but are indifferent towards the DRL...makes no sense.

I was at a town hall meeting in Scarborough with Byford a couple of years ago, and someone asked him this. You do not want to know what his answer was...

Do you want to know what his answer was? Highlight below to see...

It didn't even cross their mind. But he suspects the cost savings would not have been that much...

 

[BurlOak]

I was at a town hall meeting in Scarborough with Byford a couple of years ago, and someone asked him this. You do not want to know what his answer was...

Do you want to know what his answer was? Highlight below to see...

It didn't even cross their mind. But he suspects the cost savings would not have been that much...

Is the TTC really that stupid. We kept giving Byford credit for being smart - I guess we were wrong.

Based on this article, we were under the impression that

Spokesman Brad Ross confirmed the TTC is studying elevated rail “to better understand the implications of such a system, including costs.”

Perhaps Byford misunderstood. After all, its not like a government agency to lie to the public.

Or perhaps this can't be true. No technical person could be that stupid. It must have been a political decision imposed from above.

 

[44 North]

I was at a town hall meeting in Scarborough with Byford a couple of years ago, and someone asked him this. You do not want to know what his answer was...

Do you want to know what his answer was? Highlight below to see...

It didn't even cross their mind. But he suspects the cost savings would not have been that much...

Well, I know there are cost savings. But the point is that it wasn’t presented to the public, nor was it looked at - by the TTC, or by Metrolinx. And why was Byford fielding questions for a Metrolinx project?

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Seems to me that Mr. Byford made something up on the spot to prevent disparaging Metrolinx.

Brad Ross did something similar a few weeks ago, when he called 4 Sheppard Line usage acceptable for a subway line.