Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[unimaginative2]

Exactly, rpgr.

To the dismay of Shiner and other subway boosters, finishing the line doesn't seem to be in the cards any time soon. The TTC's latest plan for the corridor calls for a streetcar right-of-way, or LRT, to complete the route along Sheppard.

"Instead of spending a billion dollars to finish the line, we can do (about) 10 times as much LRT for that same amount of money," TTC chair Adam Giambrone says.

So Giambrone himself says that it will cost a billion dollars to finish the 8kms remaining on the Sheppard subway. He claims that we can build about 80 kms of LRT for the same amount of money? Strange, since the 15km "Scarborough-Malvern" LRT line was to cost $630 million for less than twice the distance and a far inferior level of service, and this was before the total cost of Transit City ballooned from $6-billion to $9-billion.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Yet absolutely nothing that you've posted is at all relevant to the Sheppard extension. Transit City will cost approximately three times the Sheppard and Danforth extensions put together.

But encompass forty times the surface area.

All you did was bold parts of it to make it seem otherwise, the same technique a creationist would use on a scientific article on evolution. Reading the whole article shows NIMBYism, bad anecdotal evidence and references to 5 years ago for all the parts you bolded.

Clever eh? Seriously though the points I highlighted ARE relevant to today's Sheppard. NIMBYism is as strong as ever and there are several competing priorities perhaps more deserving to consider first. If SRT is to be replaced, why should the first subway to reach STC be from the northwest? BD has a proven track record of high volume ridership and gets commuters alot closer to downtown (the premiere transit destination of the GTA, not NYCC). I'd gladly support a subway approaching from the southeast (intermediates at Eglinton/Brimley, Lawrence/McCowan, Ellesmere?).

So Giambrone himself says that it will cost a billion dollars to finish the 8kms remaining on the Sheppard subway. He claims that we can build about 80 kms of LRT for the same amount of money? Strange, since the 15km "Scarborough-Malvern" LRT line was to cost $630 million for less than twice the distance and a far inferior level of service, and this was before the total cost of Transit City ballooned from $6-billion to $9-billion.

It's the difference in technologies and methods used that account for the cost disparity. Of course tunneling underground will balloon costs over laying tracks on the surface.

 

[unimaginative2]

But encompass forty times the surface area.

And spending $9 billion on buses could let us have a bus network that stretches to Sudbury. So what? A subway offers vastly better quality of service, both in terms of travel time and reliability, than TTC routes like St. Clair that are meant to be a model for Transit City.

Clever eh? Seriously though the points I highlighted ARE relevant to today's Sheppard. NIMBYism is as strong as ever and there are several competing priorities perhaps more deserving to consider first. If SRT is to be replaced, why should the first subway to reach STC be from the northwest? BD has a proven track record of high volume ridership and gets commuters alot closer to downtown (the premiere transit destination of the GTA, not NYCC). I'd gladly support a subway approaching from the southeast (intermediates at Eglinton/Brimley, Lawrence/McCowan, Ellesmere?).

Like we've all said, replacing the RT with a subway should be top priority for transit in Scarborough, if only because the RT's deteriorating state necessitates quick action. The route to choose for that subway extension is certainly up for debate, whether it's the shortest route continuing under the abandoned rail corridor and then north, along the existing RT right-of-way, or on some route that curves a bit to the east to hit McCowan.

It's the difference in technologies and methods used that account for the cost disparity. Of course tunneling underground will balloon costs over laying tracks on the surface.

Yeah, but tracks in the middle of the street will also make it take two hours to get across the city.

 

[nfitz]

Yeah, but tracks in the middle of the street will also make it take two hours to get across the city.

The only line going 'across' the city will be the Eglinton line. Given that the two tracks will be in a subway, and the rest will be separated right-of-way, then I find your estimate to be lacking.

 

[unimaginative2]

Measure the length of the St. Clair line. Look at the length of the surface sections on Eglinton. Look at how long it takes to run the length of the St. Clair line.

Anyway, my point is not to argue about travel time projections. It's to point out that subway service is vastly quicker and more reliable than LRT in medians, so comparing the area served and the length of line is certainly apples to oranges.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

But encompass forty times the surface area.

Clever eh? Seriously though the points I highlighted ARE relevant to today's Sheppard. NIMBYism is as strong as ever and there are several competing priorities perhaps more deserving to consider first. If SRT is to be replaced, why should the first subway to reach STC be from the northwest?

Forty? So now Transit City is proposing over 500km of lines? You're also neglecting the $6 billion left over, an amount equal to the original proposed cost of the entire LRT scheme.

If STC is breached by subways from Sheppard before Danforth, that's just a quirk of history and geography. Sheppard between Don Mills and STC will be a continuous wall of towers even before the subway's extended...no NIMBYs!

 

[nfitz]

Anyway, my point is not to argue about travel time projections. It's to point out that subway service is vastly quicker and more reliable than LRT in medians, so comparing the area served and the length of line is certainly apples to oranges.

Perhaps - but by comparing service on an Eglinton LRT that should be in service in 5 years or so, to an Eglinton subwat that wouldn't be seen years later - I'd say the LRT will be a lot faster than the non-existant subway.

 

[unimaginative2]

Once again, I'm not saying that Eglinton should necessarily be a subway. I'm saying that it's absurd to compare LRT and subway solely based on the mileage covered, since subway indisputably offers a far superior level of service.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Measure the length of the St. Clair line. Look at the length of the surface sections on Eglinton. Look at how long it takes to run the length of the St. Clair line.

It normally takes 50 minutes to get from St Clair Stn to Gunns Loop. That's far below your two hour projection. The areas beyond the Eglinton tunnel have wide lanes, density far aback from the roadway and infrequent traffic stoplights that'd impede the flow of traffic. Even if two lanes are permanently lost to private vehicles, traffic flow would still be moderate.

Once again, I'm not saying that Eglinton should necessarily be a subway. I'm saying that it's absurd to compare LRT and subway solely based on the mileage covered, since subway indisputably offers a far superior level of service.

Eglinton SHOULD be a subway. It's the only east-west arterial road in the entire city to successfully navigate Scarborough, East York, Toronto, York, Etobicoke and Mississauga; virtually everywhere except North York. The potential ridership by all projections could outbeat BD with no less than 100,000-250,000 passengers per day. The 30 routes within the Eglinotn Corridor along with all the intersecting ones it encounters means passengers wouldn't wait til Bloor to interchange. This benefits all subway lines as BD gets alleviated while boosting underpreformers like Spadina and the SRT. There are many trip generators en route not to mention numerous low-income households, the basis for any successful subway. Amalgamate a wye for Don Mills-Overlea and the Airport area and the line becomes even more monumental. Imagine if the TTC had started building it decades ago. By now it most certainly would've travassed the city, it's the geographic centre between Lakeshore and Steeles so virtually no major bus route could escape it. So Eglinton more so than meagre extensions to underachieving lines should be a priority. I'd like to see a full length tunnel from Brimley/Danforth to Black Creek with feeder BUSES not LRTs radiating from either end.

Forty? So now Transit City is proposing over 500km of lines? You're also neglecting the $6 billion left over, an amount equal to the original proposed cost of the entire LRT scheme.

$2 billion of TC is going towards Eglinton Crosstown. If we get it as a subway from conception then only $4 billion would be going towards LRTs. The point is life doesn't start and end in Agincourt/Wishing Well/Scarborough Centre.

If STC is breached by subways from Sheppard before Danforth, that's just a quirk of history and geography. Sheppard between Don Mills and STC will be a continuous wall of towers even before the subway's extended...no NIMBYs!

Adam Giambrone himself said its unlikely Sheppard will be completed within the forseeable future. If building contractors want to continuously build eyesores til oblivion on the pipe dream whims that people will invest once they realize the subway extension is still decades away, then that's their problem !

 

[unimaginative2]

It normally takes 50 minutes to get from St Clair Stn to Gunns Loop.

Wow. That proves my point incredibly effectively. St. Clair is the model for Transit City. It takes 50 minutes to cover the 6.5 kilometres from St. Clair Station to Gunns Loop. The Eglinton surface section from Keele to Martin Grove alone is 7.5 km. That line's the one I'm least worried about, though. What about the others? Don Mills is 17.6 km. At the same average speed as St. Clair, the model for these lines, covering that distance would take 135 minutes, or two and a quarter hours. Sheppard East from Don Mills to Morningside (13.6 km) would take 105 minutes.

Even at a more reasonable figure of 30 minutes for the 512 St. Clair travel time, Don Mills would take 81 minutes, Sheppard East would be 63 minutes.

Eglinton SHOULD be a subway. It's the only east-west arterial road in the entire city to successfully navigate Scarborough, East York, Toronto, York, Etobicoke and Mississauga; virtually everywhere except North York. The potential ridership by all projections could outbeat BD with no less than 100,000-250,000 passengers per day. The 30 routes within the Eglinotn Corridor along with all the intersecting ones it encounters means passengers wouldn't wait til Bloor to interchange. This benefits all subway lines as BD gets alleviated while boosting underpreformers like Spadina and the SRT.

You're not going to have trouble convincing me of the need for more subways, though I've come to accept Eglinton as an LRT if done right. The SRT is hardly an underperformer. It's so overcrowded that the TTC runs express buses parallel to it in order to relieve some of the pressure.

$2 billion of TC is going towards Eglinton Crosstown. If we get it as a subway from conception then only $4 billion would be going towards LRTs. The point is life doesn't start and end in Agincourt/Wishing Well/Scarborough Centre.

Yes, and there'd be $5 billion more in subway costs... What's your point? If you got rid of the Sheppard East and Morningside streetcars, you'd save more than a billion, too. Besides, you're using the outdated $6 billion figure for Transit City. It's up to $9 billion now.

Adam Giambrone himself said its unlikely Sheppard will be completed within the forseeable future. If building contractors want to continuously build eyesores til oblivion on the pipe dream whims that people will invest once they realize the subway extension is still decades away, then that's their problem !

What on earth are you talking about? First of all, a subway's hardly an eyesore since it's quite invisibly underground. I can think of who you got that building contractors idea from. Developers are so desperate for sites on subway lines that they will and do indeed build massive projects around them. Look at Sheppard. It's becoming the most heavily developed suburban corridor in the city, and it's all because of the subway.

 

[CDL.TO]

underpreformers like Spadina and the SRT.

I was under the impression that comments like these is what Scarberiankhatru was referring to when he stated that we are "in a city where any route that isn't completely full is considered an obscene failure". This certainly seems to be the accepted knowledge in Toronto.

I've stated it before and I'll say it again, you can't get on a southbound Spadina line train from Eglinton West at St. Clair West in the morning peak. It's as packed as a northbound Yonge train at College at 5:15pm. But yet the line isn't standing room only for its entire length during the daytime, so therefore it's considered an "underperformer".

 

[unimaginative2]

You're right, cdl, but it's not just completely full: it's overfull. A line isn't really successful unless it's leaving people behind on the platform.

This reminds me of something I read somewhere about...I think it was rail service in Britain. To paraphrase, the TTC doesn't choose to try to attract people with good service. Only when a poor service is unusually popular do they consider building an improvement as some kind of gift.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I was under the impression that comments like these is what Scarberiankhatru was referring to when he stated that we are "in a city where any route that isn't completely full is considered an obscene failure". This certainly seems to be the accepted knowledge in Toronto.

I've stated it before and I'll say it again, you can't get on a southbound Spadina line train from Eglinton West at St. Clair West in the morning peak. It's as packed as a northbound Yonge train at College at 5:15pm. But yet the line isn't standing room only for its entire length during the daytime, so therefore it's considered an "underperformer".

Yes...at times on this forum, an "underperformer" is defined to be any line where you're capable of fitting onto a vehicle.

Then there's something like the Sheppard line, which even politicians and newspapers lambaste even though it arguably carries more people than anything other than the other two subway lines (streetcar lines like King and Queen are bisected by the YUS and Sheppard is also mostly one-way rush hour traffic). Yes, it could carry more and perform better, but only if it's extended to what it originally should have been. It will be called 'underperforming' until 2 or 3 trains routinely pass by before you can get on...partially because Sheppard-haters will persist for a long time and partially because of a preoccupation with 'efficiency.'

Eglinton SHOULD be a subway. It's the only east-west arterial road in the entire city to successfully navigate Scarborough, East York, Toronto, York, Etobicoke and Mississauga; virtually everywhere except North York. The potential ridership by all projections could outbeat BD with no less than 100,000-250,000 passengers per day.

$2 billion of TC is going towards Eglinton Crosstown. If we get it as a subway from conception then only $4 billion would be going towards LRTs. The point is life doesn't start and end in Agincourt/Wishing Well/Scarborough Centre. Adam Giambrone himself said its unlikely Sheppard will be completed within the forseeable future. If building contractors want to continuously build eyesores til oblivion on the pipe dream whims that people will invest once they realize the subway extension is still decades away, then that's their problem !

Eglinton is kind of a question mark...if they built it as a subway today, it could be well-used, but its riders can easily be cannabalized by other projects. The one sure thing is that going all the way across the city is totally irrelevant.

Agincourt had dozens of high-rises and office buildings well before the Sheppard line was a development force. The main beneficiaries of the Sheppard line (other than Mel) were always to be people at and east of Don Mills. It really does boggle the mind how we can propose $9 billion worth of LRT to all sorts of 'priority neighbourhoods' and then dismiss short subway extensions based on cost. Scarborough's compensation for not getting the subway extensions costs more than the subway extensions!

 

[MisterF]

Eglinton SHOULD be a subway. It's the only east-west arterial road in the entire city to successfully navigate Scarborough, East York, Toronto, York, Etobicoke and Mississauga; virtually everywhere except North York.

That's no reason to build a subway. Subways should be planned to follow travel patterns, not some arbitrary straight line that goes through a lot of boroughs. If the busy travel corridors happen to be straight, then straight subway lines make sense.

The potential ridership by all projections could outbeat BD with no less than 100,000-250,000 passengers per day.

There's no way an Eglinton line that's the same length as the B-D line would have the same ridership. The B-D line hits way more trip generators, including downtown, and goes through denser and more congested parts of the city. Exactly what a subway line should do.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Doesn't the B/D line have a ridership of almost 500,000? "No less than 100,000" isn't exactly a ringing endorsement - the Sheppard line would have at least that if it went from Downsview to STC and it'd be only half the length of an Eglinton line.