Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[Rainforest]

Where's the additional funding coming from to pay for the operating budget shortfall to run this extra subway? And let's not forget the new Spadina extension is hardly going to be paying for itself either when it opens. Someone has to subsidize these dink stations.

The operating costs of Spadina extension are a valid concern, because of the very low ridership north of York U.

Scarborough subway may be nearly revenue-neutral. Operational cost of its 3 or 4 stations will be substantial, but it will replace all of the SRT costs, SRT yard costs, plus the cost of rush-hour express buses that TTC is forced to run these days in order to supplement SRT. In addition, the subway extension is projected to bring some more riders to the system, and that means some new revenue.

Until the actual calculations are done, I would not assume that Scarborough subway will be a money drain just because it is a subway.

 

[Rainforest]

Did I miss something....did the city not already say they would raise property taxes by 2% to contribute to this line?

So far, Ford promised a 0.25% property tax hike, which is not enough to cover the city's portion.

I think though that they will secure the city's contribution one way or another, given that both provincial and federal funding is in place already.

 

[gweed123]

The operating costs of Spadina extension are a valid concern, because of the very low ridership north of York U.

Scarborough subway may be nearly revenue-neutral. Operational cost of its 3 or 4 stations will be substantial, but it will replace all of the SRT costs, SRT yard costs, plus the cost of rush-hour express buses that TTC is forced to run these days in order to supplement SRT. In addition, the subway extension is projected to bring some more riders to the system, and that means some new revenue.

Until the actual calculations are done, I would not assume that Scarborough subway will be a money drain just because it is a subway.

Good points, and I would agree. I think the Scarborough Subway could come very close to neutrality, even moderate profitability. A not-so-inconesquential ridership booster that I don't hear a lot about is the DRT Pulse service. Once the subway is complete and the Pulse service has been in operation for a few years, I think the two combined could generate pretty nice ridership boost. Remember, most of the money-losing routes the TTC runs are the suburban bus routes. The fact that DRT is dropping off passengers for free right at the TTC's doorstep means that the TTC doesn't have to expend resources to get those riders to the subway. VIVA does the same thing at Finch right now, as does Mississauga at Islington. The TTC loves those riders, because they don't have to allocate any surface route resources in order to get those riders.

 

[Tulse]

A not-so-inconesquential ridership booster that I don't hear a lot about is the DRT Pulse service. Once the subway is complete and the Pulse service has been in operation for a few years, I think the two combined could generate pretty nice ridership boost.

...all pouring into Yonge and Bloor well before the DRL is built (heck, likely before it is even started).

 

[freshcutgrass]

Scarborough subway may be nearly revenue-neutral. Operational cost of its 3 or 4 stations will be substantial, but it will replace all of the SRT costs, SRT yard costs, plus the cost of rush-hour express buses that TTC is forced to run these days in order to supplement SRT. In addition, the subway extension is projected to bring some more riders to the system.

While I like the integration with the BD line, and that may well attract some new riders, 3/4 of the ridership of the RT is from feeder routes. And with half the stations, it's has inferior integration with the bulk of its ridership source.

I hate to say it, but the only hope for this extension is for it to link up with the Sheppard Line. But that just puts us deeper in a hole, and more importantly, every forever under-utilized dink subway station built just takes that much more resources away from building truly needed subways like the DRL.

 

[gweed123]

...all pouring into Yonge and Bloor well before the DRL is built (heck, likely before it is even started).

At this point the DRL is a desperately needed yet politically inconvenient piece of infrastructure. Throwing more suburbanites (comprising the majority of the people who currently oppose the DRL) onto B-D and specifically B-Y will only boost public demand for the project.

It's a sad state of affairs that the frog in the pot needs to be boiling to the point of near-death before he finally hops out, but such is the way transit planning is done in Toronto. If you aren't 10-20 past when a solution should have been implemented, you haven't waited long enough.

 

[epcjay]

What about ending the subway at STC, separating the sheppard LRT into two routes? one goes across sheppard, and another goes to STC then back up to the terminus? Much like how Viva goes down to unionville go station, then back up to highway 7. The service to go across hwy 7 from warden to kennedy is projected to be start in 2017.

 

[GenerationW]

If the province allocated $1.8B for the SRT because of Kennedy Station, there is no reason why the province can't move $315m from the SRT plan to the subway other than screwing the city.

Glen Murray seems angry enough right now to want to screw the city.

...all pouring into Yonge and Bloor well before the DRL is built (heck, likely before it is even started).

So it's all Scarborough's fault?

 

[JayBeeGooner]

Watching Council try to solve this will be amusing. So we've went from a fully funded LRT plan to a still unfunded subway plan. Great.

The Pro-Subway councillors are already fretting over having to raise property taxes.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...funding-for-subway-extension/article14512506/

 

[Tulse]

So it's all Scarborough's fault?

Not at all, but it means that it is extremely bad planning (not that "planning" can be used in this circumstance) to expand in this fashion prior to building the DRL.

If there's enough ridership for a subway extension to replace the SRT, then there is need to have the DRL built first to accommodate the extra riders. You can't both argue that Scarborough can support a subway and that the DRL is a luxury.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

The Pro-Subway councillors are already fretting over having to raise property taxes.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news...funding-for-subway-extension/article14512506/

These people must have issues understanding that things cost money.

Anyways, part of me is hoping this will lead to the creation of dedicated funding for transit in Toronto. Perhaps something like in the OneCity plan. It's unlikely but I can dream.

 

[andrewpmk]

These people must have issues understanding that things cost money.

Anyways, part of me is hoping this will lead to the creation of dedicated funding for transit in Toronto. Perhaps something like in the OneCity plan. It's unlikely but I can dream.

Can we please implement the "revenue tools" now so that we can have a serious discussion about properly funding subway expansion? i.e. replacing Eglinton with a subway, replacing Sheppard with a subway, the SRT replacement, building a DRL from Liberty Village to Union to Finch/Don Mills, extending Yonge line north to Major Mackenzie, and expanding GO train service on all lines, at least these are the more significant priorities. "OneCity" is a joke, light rail makes no sense once there is adequate funding e.g. 30 billion dollars. That is comparable in size to the massive Crossrail project in London and Grand Paris project in Paris.

I am sick and tired of this never ending subway vs light rail debate and it is obvious that the reason that the light rail advocates are (mostly) winning is shortage of cash. I feel that we are like Singapore around 1980 or so, when many people thought that bus rapid transit was adequate, but a subway system was built instead, and now the city-state has doubled in population since then and many more subway lines are being built. I know that Toronto will not grow that quickly because there is a 905, but obviously Toronto is growing upward at a rapid pace, just walk along Sheppard between Victoria Park and Yonge in rush hour and see the dozens of new condos and terrible traffic in that area.

 

[Tulse]

These people must have issues understanding that things cost money.

Exactly. There is no magic to building transit -- it costs money. Any mayor could build out the subway system with a big enough influx of cash. What is infuriating is that Ford has spun this idea that somehow Toronto can get expensive subways without any increase in taxes or other revenue tools.

 

[Rainforest]

While I like the integration with the BD line, and that may well attract some new riders, 3/4 of the ridership of the RT is from feeder routes. And with half the stations, it's has inferior integration with the bulk of its ridership source.

I hate to say it, but the only hope for this extension is for it to link up with the Sheppard Line. But that just puts us deeper in a hole, and more importantly, every forever under-utilized dink subway station built just takes that much more resources away from building truly needed subways like the DRL.

Despite having fewer stations, the subway option will have same, or even slightly better, integration with surface routes as the SLRT option:
- All buses running to Scarborough Centre would connect there, no matter subway or SLRT.
- Lawrence East bus would connect to SLRT or to subway equally well.
- Ellesmere bus will not be connected properly to the subway, but it is poorly connected to SRT anyway.
- Midland bus is the only one disadvantaged by the subway scheme, but not dramatically disadvantaged as it will run to the Kennedy station.
- Brimley bus can actually benefit from the subway scheme if they add a station at Brimley and Eglinton.
- Sheppard bus or Sheppard LRT will be better and more usefully connected to the subway if the latter comes to Sheppard & McCowan. Imagine someone living on Sheppard between Kennedy and McCowan. With the SLRT scheme, if they want to get onto the subway they would have to backtrack east to Progress, hop on SLRT, and then transfer again at Kennedy. With the subway scheme, they simply ride to McCowan and get onto the subway.

I would not link Scarborough subway to the Sheppard subway, now or in the near future. The ridership north of STC will be too low to justify the capital and operating costs, even though the combined subway would have some network benefits. Furthermore, the combined subway will kill any hope of a better transit east of STC, as all money will go into the subway.

 

[Rainforest]

What about ending the subway at STC, separating the sheppard LRT into two routes? one goes across sheppard, and another goes to STC then back up to the terminus? Much like how Viva goes down to unionville go station, then back up to highway 7. The service to go across hwy 7 from warden to kennedy is projected to be start in 2017.

I suppose this is possible, but will complicate the headway management, and upset riders who travel along Sheppard by needlessly taking them on the STC detour.

Unionville station is only 900 m south of Hwy 7, whereas STC is 1.7 km south of Sheppard.

The cost of additional LRT tracks to STC is nontrivial, especially if you want to build two N-S segments, for example on Brimley and on McCowan. You would need to cross Hwy 401 one or two times, and fit the LRT station somewhere alongside with the subway station and the bus terminal. After all of that, the saving from not extending the subway to Sheppard may not be large enough to bother.