Aplus23
Active Member
As a Scarborough resident I didn't oppose the LRT, so you speaking as if everyone I'm Scarborough was well informed or was aware in general, makes your disingenuous sarcasm even more of pompous
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As a Scarborough resident I didn't oppose the LRT, so you speaking as if everyone I'm Scarborough was well informed or was aware in general, makes your disingenuous sarcasm even more of pompous
sixrings
Senior Member
Obviously with 600k people I don’t expect the good people to speak as a monolith. Doesn’t change the fact that all the city’s councillors from Scarborough who speak for their people voted against the lrt. Same with the MPs. And your people gave mayor Rob ford a mayoral office based on the promise of a subway. I am sorry you didn’t get your lrt if you wanted it. But your politicians never fought for LRT. They systematically sabotaged it. However now you’re well on your way to a sheppard subway extension so I would consider that a win. Again I do not know how this is talking bad about Scarborough. I might not have loved their strategies but they successfully managed to horde most of the cities transit dollars. And when everyone is fighting for their share that is a huge accomplishment.
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carlosdanger
New Member
I am astonished by Scarborough's power. It has had some of the worst relative transit versus other parts of the city, yet is thought of as having incredible power.
I still await all this hoarded money from the city for transit.
Jaye101
Active Member
I think people are offended because you're equating Scarborough to Brampton or Mississauga, alluding that Scarborough is not deserving of transit as expansive as North York.
Transit ridership in Scarborough far exceeds that of Mississauga regardless of population, by a wide margin. The 116 Morningside in East Scarborough carries about as much people as Hurontario. You're better off comparing Scarborough to North York. And how the latter managed to soak up the vast majority of all the expansive transit investment in the city for 4 decades straight.
Meanwhile North York still sees billions worth in Transit projects coming with Line 7 Finch West, Yonge North, and OL @ Don Mills and Eglinton.
Scarborough is overdue for it's turn, trust me they've suffered enough.
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sixrings
Senior Member
In all the years I never thought scarborough didn’t deserve to get the same quality of transit as anywhere else in toronto. However I have yet to see any numbers by anyone that the sheppard extension makes sense. Yet this is what is in the process of happening. And it’s partially happening because Scarborough said no to the srt conversion. As much as I can be convinced that a subway to Scarborough town centre makes sense… I am never (next 50 years) be convinced that two subways to Scarborough town makes sense. If sheppard had to be extended because it was already built then they should have just built that would be my opinion. Again though now Scarborough is getting two lines and they will have close access to the Ontario line as well. North York as you pointed out, on the other hand, is getting one lrt. But Scarborough kicked and screamed and as much as I dislike the transit spending they won in the end. So credit to them.
W. K. Lis
Superstar
I live near the Eglinton West LRT extension. I would have accepted a surface running LRT extension. I would have accepted an elevated LRT extension.
It was because it would be near Doug Ford's old neighbourhood (Kipling & Eglinton) that they are putting the LRT extension underground. Because of his family's "subways, subways, subways" and he didn't want to see the peasants pass him when he drives around by himself in the luxury SUV, that we're getting an underground electric railway near his old stomping grounds.
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Sunnyside
Active Member
North York is a big place… and it is much more centrally located in the region than Scarborough. While some of it is politics, it has been a logical place to build transit thus far thanks to its centrality and proximity to the old city. Lots of demand from Etobicoke and yes, Scarborough, happens to concentrate there. Sheppard was a product of that logic, but poorly executed.
Scarborough’s also far out and it’s demand is fairly dispersed, so it also makes choosing what transit to build less obvious… I’ll maintain my stance for this topic that Scarborough could probably have gotten a better transit plan, but there is no lack of dollars being spent.
carlosdanger
New Member
I think transit infrastructure investment is the most important factor in the quality of transit.
The concession that things could be better, but with no more spending is a common attitude and leads to innovative solutions.
There was never any real expectation for proper signal priority on the non-tunneled section of the Crosstown, but it was put forward as a way to cut costs, but maintain speed and reliability. It would help with any discussion of signal priority to know where in the city transit gets it. The answer is nowhere. Not downtown, not anywhere.
The concession that things could be better, but with no more spending is a common attitude and leads to innovative solutions.
There was never any real expectation for proper signal priority on the non-tunneled section of the Crosstown, but it was put forward as a way to cut costs, but maintain speed and reliability. It would help with any discussion of signal priority to know where in the city transit gets it. The answer is nowhere. Not downtown, not anywhere.
carlosdanger
New Member
I don't think the Sheppard line should have been built. I'd prefer an Eglinton subway (thanks Harris and those who want to cut transit spending) instead before any East-West rail elsewhere.
This is some real cope. Scarborough is getting two lines and that's two much? They would both be extensions. To a place which will see massive development in the next few decades. If you look compare the kilometres of rapid transit or just subways that exist in North York versus Scarborough you'll see a huge imbalance. No I am not saying they should be 1:1. I am saying that they shouldn't be where they are now.
The most recent subway section, where was it? North York. The penultimate subway section, where was it built? North York. One of the next few subway extensions that will be built; will one of them be built in North York? Yes.
Jaye101
Active Member
Apologies, I don't think you read my response in it's entirety.
North York has absorbed the majority of all expansive transit funding in the last 5 decades. Saying Scarborough kicked and screamed and got what's undeserved lacks historical context. Scarborough deserves an equal opportunity to develop into a more sustainable built form and doing so will support the region and the city as a whole.
I used to think like you. I say this not in a condescending way. What you're saying makes sense. The ridership isn't there, the density isn't there to support a subway.
But after seeing the Scarborough RT get built to a greenfield, to becoming overcapacity in just a couple decades. And Sheppard East seeing enormous levels of development and built form along the line. Travelling to US cities where the Finch East bus carries more people than subway lines. I've changed my mind.
David Miller told us that we didn't need a new subway line downtown, the new streetcars were poised to ~double transit capacity. It's time we stop short-changing ourselves and our collective potential.
It's important that in Toronto's privileged context, considering population growth and political appetite for intensification, that we build for the future and not the intermediary.
From a network perspective, Sheppard should be extended as it serves no real use in it's current form. Connecting it to Agincourt GO and McCowan (2) is useful to people beyond Scarborough or Toronto as a whole. No it doesn't make much sense from a technical riders per km baseline for subway ridership. But in order to get people on transit we must create a useful and redundant network. Now does it have to be underground? That's another question entirely.
Undead
Senior Member
Scarborough already has all day RER lite on Stouffville and LSE with more improvements are coming. North York has only the paltry Richmond Hill line with no midday, evening or weekend service (not even busses).
Jonny5
Senior Member
There's a thing called GO Transit. You've never brought it up but it looms as the largest item of "historical context." Tens of thousands use(d) it daily at its many station stops all over Scarborough. You can't spout of about Scarborough transit history and ignore that elephant that's been in the room for 60 years.
Scarborough wanted GO and didn't care about else. Spare me any "but what about now" crap. Here's context from someone who lived "historically" (cause I guess the 20th century is now historical
) : Scarborough got the exact shitty terrible transit it demanded to have. All I hear now is regret for the terrible decisions of the past, and blaming everyone else for making their own mess. Look inwards to find the problem, not to the rest of the City because we moved on while you still stomp your feet and slam doors shut like children having a temper tantrum.EDIT: Oh, and by the way, you can make a valid argument about social equity and "three cities" and forgotten poor, etc... but many vocal people who chose to forget them were Scarborough residents, many of them still living there, driving to work each day, often by choice.
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T3G
Senior Member
But where did all that ridership come from?
Apart from people going to/from Scarborough Town Centre, it's all people connecting in from the bus lines which sprawl out all over Scarborough. There has been near zero development along the intermediate stations, or at McCowan. The only stations on the RT that actually matter are Kennedy and STC. It is a glorified shuttle to there, hardly a transit oriented development success story.
carlosdanger
New Member
Want to trade North York's transit for Scarborough's? I'd do it in a second.
Lakeshore is twice hourly and Stouffville is hourly. That will improve in the future, but I'd still take the trade after improvements to those lines.
blacksquirrels
Active Member
this would be more relevant if GO and the TTC had fare integration. hopefully that happens one day.
I'm not pro any particular borough, but just as an interesting thought here's how many stations each borough will eventually have. this includes existing and planned as of now. Scarborough is way down the list and this doesn't include a Line 4 extension. every borough will still be underserved, even after the completion of all planned stations. the whole region Toronto + 905 (Vaughn + Markham + Richmond Hill) needs pretty close to double this number in my opinion.
Toronto: 63
North York: 35
Etobicoke: 17
Scarborough: 13
York: 10
East York: 4
905: 7