Danforth Line 2 Scarborough Subway Extension

[sixrings]

This must replace the SRT or renovate it. They can't just leave the low income neighbourhood east of Lawrence East with nothing.

Providing better coverage is one thing, providing better coverage for low income neighbourhood is totally another thing. Line 4 extension to STC + OL extension the Sheppard does not help the city's priority neighbourhood in any way. Building transit to these neighbourhoods will increase ridership than others where people are already driving their luxury SUVs around.
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Source: https://www.toronto.ca/city-government/data-research-maps/neighbourhoods-communities/nia-profiles/

Transit isn't supposed to be a social engineering project. That's how Transfer City got us into this mess. Scarborough and Rexdale shouldn't have gotten anything and we should have had a full DRL by now. The DRL is the only line that makes any sense numerically. Those bleeding heart lefties wanted to do something nice, and we've been wasting time ever since. Thank God for Rob Ford and his common sense logic to double the spending and give Scarborough a Subway so that the elite wouldn't be able to disrespect them anymore.

 

[CapitalSeven]

Transit isn't supposed to be a social engineering project. That's how Transfer City got us into this mess. Scarborough and Rexdale shouldn't have gotten anything and we should have had a full DRL by now. The DRL is the only line that makes any sense numerically. Those bleeding heart lefties wanted to do something nice, and we've been wasting time ever since. Thank God for Rob Ford and his common sense logic to double the spending and give Scarborough a Subway so that the elite wouldn't be able to disrespect them anymore.

Yikes. That's the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. Transit City was born partly out of the frustration of Toronto's/Ontario's inability to get big projects like subways off the ground. The SSE was social engineering of a different kind. I'll buy your vote and sell you a story about respect. It continues on Eglinton west. Rob Ford didn't care about transit. He cared about buying votes. And crack.

 

[sixrings]

Yikes. That's the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. Transit City was born partly out of the frustration of Toronto's/Ontario's inability to get big projects like subways off the ground. The SSE was social engineering of a different kind. I'll buy your vote and sell you a story about respect. It continues on Eglinton west. Rob Ford didn't care about transit. He cared about buying votes. And crack.

Welcome to the thread where if you've been here long enough you'd have noticed that I have long given up on having a debate about the SSE with actual common sense as there are no numbers which support the project. Rather out of frustration I sometimes sarcastically write comments with buzz words that the supporters regularly throw out. Put all the buzz words and silly statements together and it sounds extra ridiculous. Normally though a post only has one buzz word so it can appear to be from someone who is open to dialogue. But as many people have figured out were just talking in circles. Yes my post was ridiculous. Yet somehow not as ridiculous as this vanity project.

 

[Rainforest]

This must replace the SRT or renovate it. They can't just leave the low income neighbourhood east of Lawrence East with nothing.

Providing better coverage is one thing, providing better coverage for low income neighbourhood is totally another thing. Line 4 extension to STC + OL extension the Sheppard does not help the city's priority neighbourhood in any way. Building transit to these neighbourhoods will increase ridership than others where people are already driving their luxury SUVs around.

Neither the subway nor the SRT nor the SLRT would serve the east-most section of Lawrence Avenue directly. One can argue that the subway is a tiny bit better because the subway station will be located further east and the bus ride to the subway will be 3-4 min shorter.

The current Lawrence East station area would be best served by the GO line. If they are going to have 7 trains per hour in the Uxbridge sub, then its is possible to organize the service in a way that works both for Markham and for the 416. Say, 4 trains per hour serve all stops north of Mulliken, and then run express between Mulliken and Union stopping only at Kennedy and East Harbor. The remaining 3 trains per hour run between Mulliken and Union and serve all stops in-between: Finch East, Agincourt, Lawrence, Kennedy, Scarborough, Danforth, Gerrard, East Harbor. The Mulliken - Union trains should be covered by the TTC fare.

 

[Haydenpoon]

Neither the subway nor the SRT nor the SLRT would serve the east-most section of Lawrence Avenue directly. One can argue that the subway is a tiny bit better because the subway station will be located further east and the bus ride to the subway will be 3-4 min shorter.

The current Lawrence East station area would be best served by the GO line. If they are going to have 7 trains per hour in the Uxbridge sub, then its is possible to organize the service in a way that works both for Markham and for the 416. Say, 4 trains per hour serve all stops north of Mulliken, and then run express between Mulliken and Union stopping only at Kennedy and East Harbor. The remaining 3 trains per hour run between Mulliken and Union and serve all stops in-between: Finch East, Agincourt, Lawrence, Kennedy, Scarborough, Danforth, Gerrard, East Harbor. The Mulliken - Union trains should be covered by the TTC fare.

In Metrolinx GO Expansion Full Business Case, it's way more than 7 trains per hour. There will only 8 local trains per hour all-day, plus 3 trains per hour peak-period peak-direction express train express between Union and Union, stopping only at Kennedy.

I would prefer all 8 local trains to stop at all stations since the frequency is more important than speed. Metrolinx can always add more train on the Stouffville GO Line, and if needed add a third or fourth track where the SRT was. To me the benefit of the SSE is to allow more express/local trains on the Stouffville Line, serving Markham and northern Scarborough.

 

[Rainforest]

In Metrolinx GO Expansion Full Business Case, it's way more than 7 trains per hour. There will only 8 local trains per hour all-day, plus 3 trains per hour peak-period peak-direction express train express between Union and Union, stopping only at Kennedy.

I would prefer all 8 local trains to stop at all stations since the frequency is more important than speed. Metrolinx can always add more train on the Stouffville GO Line, and if needed add a third or fourth track where the SRT was. To me the benefit of the SSE is to allow more express/local trains on the Stouffville Line, serving Markham and northern Scarborough.

Yeah, I forgot they are planning 11 trains per hour. Thought it is 7 trains for some reason ..

Let's see what they accomplish though. The constraints are in the Union section, as well as the single-track section south of Kennedy to Scarborough Junction.

 

[W. K. Lis]

Yikes. That's the most ridiculous thing I've read in a while. Transit City was born partly out of the frustration of Toronto's/Ontario's inability to get big projects like subways off the ground. The SSE was social engineering of a different kind. I'll buy your vote and sell you a story about respect. It continues on Eglinton west. Rob Ford didn't care about transit. He cared about buying votes. And crack.

Continuing to construct heavy rail subways would have meant spending billions and billions and billions of inflating dollars on new lines and extensions. With large parts of Toronto (and beyond) in need of rapid transit in the slowly intensifying suburban areas, the solution was to use light rail rapid transit, with parts of it grade separated.

 

[Haydenpoon]

Yeah, I forgot they are planning 11 trains per hour. Thought it is 7 trains for some reason ..

Let's see what they accomplish though. The constraints are in the Union section, as well as the single-track section south of Kennedy to Scarborough Junction.

Metrolinx is planning to double track and grade separate between Kennedy and Scarborough GO. See link.

 

[dad pad]

i really enjoyed the latest @Reecemartin video about the HART and the standardisation of the light metro feature set. one can't help but wonder what a renovated scarborough rt + extention with high frequency automated cars and platform screens would be like. frankly, imo there's a good chance it could have offered a better service than the current subway.

 

[Allandale25]

Steve Munro has reviewed the latest IO report.

Scarborough Subway Extension
Like the Ontario Line, the Scarborough Extension has been split into two pieces. The first will be the tunnel contract from Kennedy Station to McCowan. This is now in the procurement phase, and financial close is projected for Spring 2021.

The remainder of the project previously had a projected closing date of “Winter/Spring 2023”, but this is now just “2023”. With the tunnel hived off into a separate contract, it is reasonable that the remainder would have a later start date because the tunnel is a key component that must be in place first.

Metrolinx recently published a Preliminary Business Case for this extension. It includes the following text:

Kennedy Station Pocket Track/Transition Section
The Kennedy transition section extends roughly 550 metres from the east side of the GO Transit Stouffville rail corridor to Commonwealth Avenue and will include special track work and a pocket track to enable every second subway train to short turn to suit ridership demand and minimize fleet requirements, as well as lower operating costs. [p 24]

This turnback has been an on-again, off-again part of the project but it is now clearly included as a cost saving measure. With only every second train running to Sheppard/McCowan, the fleet required (as well as storage) would be within the system’s current capacity. This ties in with the timing of the T1 fleet replacement on Line 2 as there are enough T1s to run alternate, but not full service to Sheppard. This would be similar to the arrangement now used on the TYSSE where only half of the AM peak service runs north of Glencairn Station to Vaughan.

 

[syn]

1. The assumption that improving local transit in Scarborough will lead to a smaller % of trips to downtown, is dubious at best. What if better local transit results in more people taking a local route en route to downtown.

Math is dubious?

A significant increase in local transit trips will decrease the percentage of trips downtown relative to the total. Given that the vast majority of downtown trips are work related, I don't think there will be a proportional trip increase with improved local transit - unless there's a lot of people staying home from work because they don't want to take the RT.

The number of riders who wish to travel from the STC area south-west via Kennedy is about twice as large as the number of those who wish to travel west towards North York. Hence, trading SSE for a Sheppard extension doesn't strike like a great idea.

They don't wish to travel from STC via Kennedy. They do so because they have no choice. STC is an arbitrary location, and the RT is currently the only rapid transit connection to the subway available to them.

Give people a connection to the Sheppard Line that will help them get downtown and they'll take it.

Line 4 extension to STC + OL extension the Sheppard, provides better coverage than just SSE. Cost may be comparable if they cheapen out on OL and uses the GO RH ROW.
But like you said, because SSE is at an advanced planning stage, we don't really have a choice at this point.

Exactly. A Sheppard extension provides a lot more coverage, and an OL/RL extension to Don Mills provides much more benefit in terms of travel downtown (and not just for Scarborough riders).

The Scarborough LRT was in an advanced planning stage, with a large investments already made. The DRL South was in advanced planning stages too. With this thread being 15 years old, planning stages mean nothing until the project is well under construction.

This must replace the SRT or renovate it. They can't just leave the low income neighbourhood east of Lawrence East with nothing.

Providing better coverage is one thing, providing better coverage for low income neighbourhood is totally another thing. Line 4 extension to STC + OL extension the Sheppard does not help the city's priority neighbourhood in any way. Building transit to these neighbourhoods will increase ridership than others where people are already driving their luxury SUVs around.

Agreed - the assumption is that there would be an SRT refurbishment, or LRT replacement.

I'd argue the current plan does the least for Scarborough, as there probably won't be a desire for any major Scarborough transit projects for a long, long time.

Transit isn't supposed to be a social engineering project. That's how Transfer City got us into this mess. Scarborough and Rexdale shouldn't have gotten anything and we should have had a full DRL by now. The DRL is the only line that makes any sense numerically. Those bleeding heart lefties wanted to do something nice, and we've been wasting time ever since. Thank God for Rob Ford and his common sense logic to double the spending and give Scarborough a Subway so that the elite wouldn't be able to disrespect them anymore.

File this under 'it's funny because it's true'.

This was an actual argument against TC.

Steve Munro has reviewed the latest IO report.

Thanks for sharing. It seems the government is keenly aware that ridership will not justify full service on this extension.

Another interesting tidbit is that the provincial government wants the Feds to pay 40% of the cost and the city 20%. So much for the 'we'll go at it alone if we have to' rhetoric.

 

[W. K. Lis]

With the (possible) bus priority lanes coming along, one will be along Eglinton East in Scarborough.

If successful, I can see another priority bus corridor to run from Kennedy Station to, at least, Scarborough Town Centre. It would occur should they need to stop the SRT to be replaced by the Line 2 extension construction. Unless they plan to keep the SRT running and the trains don't break down. Then again, the Eglinton East Priority Corridor could be the SRT replacement, sooner than later.

 

[Rainforest]

Math is dubious?

A significant increase in local transit trips will decrease the percentage of trips downtown relative to the total. Given that the vast majority of downtown trips are work related, I don't think there will be a proportional trip increase with improved local transit - unless there's a lot of people staying home from work because they don't want to take the RT.

You did not refer to any math at all

Almost all trips to downtown involve a local component. If that local component becomes more convenient, how do you know the number of trips to downtown grows less than the number of entirely local trips?

They don't wish to travel from STC via Kennedy.

How do you know that?

They do so because they have no choice. STC is an arbitrary location, and the RT is currently the only rapid transit connection to the subway available to them.

Give people a connection to the Sheppard Line that will help them get downtown and they'll take it.

The location of STC is somewhat arbitrary indeed, it could have been shifted a couple of kilometers west, south, or east, and have about same trip count.

But the prevailing transit direction in Scarborough is south-west, not straight west, because of the large concentration of jobs and other places of interest in downtown and near downtown, and the fact that downtown is located to the south-west of Scarborough.

Anyhow, all published ridership projections for SSE east of Kennedy are in the range of 7,000 to 14,000 pphpd (7,000 is for the one-stop version), while the Sheppard extension with several stops between Don Mills and STC never was predicted to reach more than 5,500 pphpd. That's the actual math

 

[kali]

I don't think STC's location was arbitrary given that it was located to take advantage of the 401.

 

[syn]

I don't think STC's location was arbitrary given that it was located to take advantage of the 401.

Agreed. In that context it's not arbitrary.

STC is very much like the MCC - built to take advantage of the highway. Both are suburban 'city centres' designed to be auto friendly, with little consideration paid to transit.

As a 'transit hub' it very much is arbitrary. People aren't choosing to go to STC, Kennedy and the Bloor Line because it's their preferred route downtown, they're doing so because it's the only rapid transit route available (aside from GO). If the Sheppard Extension was built instead, I don't think anyone would refuse because it doesn't go to Kennedy. If the Bloor Line is where they had to go, they could take the refurbished RT.