Cycling infrastructure (Separated bike lanes)

[innsertnamehere]

problem with that is that there isn't normally 5.9m dedicated to sidewalk space.. usually its more like 4m. So you fit in a 3m bus platform, and leave a metre for the regular sidewalk? not really.

 

[reaperexpress]

problem with that is that there isn't normally 5.9m dedicated to sidewalk space.. usually its more like 4m. So you fit in a 3m bus platform, and leave a metre for the regular sidewalk? not really.

The whole point of my post was that the space for the bus platform does not come exclusively from the sidewalk. One metre automatically comes from the bike lane buffer, and an additional half a metre can come from the bike lane width. So no, we don't reduce the sidewalk to 1 metre if we want a 3 metre bus platform in a 4 metre sidewalk.

Here are the actual widths on Richmond Street east of Victoria as measured in Google Earth (chosen simply because there's a clear view from above).

Current:

Proposed: Streetmix is complaining about the width of the bus platform, but 2.4m is actually the standard width of TTC island platforms, such as on Bathurst at King.

The problem with Toronto's cycle community (or the 10%+ that are inconsiderate)....there will be a pedestrian right of way over the bike lane as your proposal. 100% guarantee that a portion of the bikes won't even give way to the pedestirans here.

No, because a large and increasing proportion of TTC stops are located at traffic signals. It's exactly the same as our existing island platforms, which actually have cars passing between the streetcar stop and the sidewalk. Pedestrians have the right of way when they have a walk signal, and bikes have the right of way when they have a green light. If people want to access the platform from the other end, they can do so unofficially by walking across the bike path when there's a gap.

If the bus pulls 100% to the curb there is no conflict between a bike and a transit user. The bike either has to stop or risk going around the bus....just like a car would have to if it stops in the vehicle lane. I don't see the problem..cars do it all the time, why can't bikes?

The difference is that when a bus collides with a cyclist, it is often fatal. When a bike collides with a pedestrian (which is also far less likely to happen), it is not. Furthermore, expecting cyclists to act like drivers excludes the vast majority of the population from riding in the first place. I don't think many parents would let their kids cycle to school if it involved changing lanes around a bus on a fast and busy arterial road.

 

[LNahid2000]

I'd prefer we keep the bike lane buffer. The Richmond/Adelaide bike lanes are my favourite in the city because they are so wide (giving you room to pass slower cyclists), and the traffic lights being synchronized usually let me get between Yonge and Bathurst nonstop riding at 30km/h. Passing buses on the left isn't really that big of an issue for me at least.

 

[the lemur]

The problem with Toronto's cycle community (or the 10%+ that are inconsiderate)....there will be a pedestrian right of way over the bike lane as your proposal. 100% guarantee that a portion of the bikes won't even give way to the pedestirans here.

The situation on Queen's Quay West involves pedestrians crossing the MGT to get to the streetcar platform, either at an intersection or mid-block. Inasmuch as a 'pedestrian right-of-way' exists there, it's because of a signal for bikes and/or a signal for pedestrians. With a bus platform/island, passengers waiting for the bus are most likely already on the island when the bus pulls up, or else have gotten off the bus and are stepping from the platform and crossing the bike lane while looking, same as they would when crossing any other unsignalled location.

 

[muller877]

The difference is that when a bus collides with a cyclist, it is often fatal. When a bike collides with a pedestrian (which is also far less likely to happen), it is not. Furthermore, expecting cyclists to act like drivers excludes the vast majority of the population from riding in the first place. I don't think many parents would let their kids cycle to school if it involved changing lanes around a bus on a fast and busy arterial road.

I now fully understand the proposal. The bike community has narrowed this road by 1 lane for autos which I 100% concurred with. You are now proposing to reduce the capacity during rush hour even further by having one of the 3 (previously 4) lanes for bus loading/unloading.

And there is a simple solution for bikes....to wait until there is room to pass the bus (just like how auto's do it).

 

[reaperexpress]

I now fully understand the proposal. The bike community has narrowed this road by 1 lane for autos which I 100% concurred with. You are now proposing to reduce the capacity during rush hour even further by having one of the 3 (previously 4) lanes for bus loading/unloading.

And there is a simple solution for bikes....to wait until there is room to pass the bus (just like how auto's do it).

That's correct. There is a tradeoff between maximizing vehicle flow, and making cycling accessible to the general population (not just those few individuals who actually feel comfortable overtaking a stopped bus in a heavy traffic lane).

So now the questions are firstly:
1. Is the delay incurred by buses stopping within a travel lane greater than the delay saved by making bike lanes more attractive for the 60% of people who would cycle for transportation if it felt safer?

and if we assume that cyclists do not overtake stopped buses:
2a. If there is a net increase in delay to car users, how does that compare to the net time savings for bicycle users? Most people do not feel safe doing a lane change in to a 50km/h stream of motor traffic, which is probably good given that it isn't safe.

or if we assume that cyclists will overtake a stopped bus despite the well-documented dangers of doing so:
2b. If there is a net increase in delay to car users, how does that compare to the number of lives/injuries (and medical resources) saved by eliminating bus-to-bike interaction?

As always there are also the general benefits associated with a higher bicycle mode share which should be considered: reduced demand for parking (private spending), reduced demand for road capacity on other streets (public spending), reduced rate of obesity (cardiovascular disease), reduced air pollution (asthma; climate change), fewer road deaths/injuries, etc.

 

[LNahid2000]

2a. If there is a net increase in delay to car users, how does that compare to the net time savings for bicycle users? Most people do not feel safe doing a lane change in to a 50km/h stream of motor traffic, which is probably good given that it isn't safe.

It seems you've never been on Richmond-Adelaide during rush hour (which is the only time there are buses here). Auto traffic isn't ever moving at 50km/h at this time, and most of the time cyclists are actually moving faster than autos on the stretch where there are buses.

 

[reaperexpress]

It seems you've never been on Richmond-Adelaide during rush hour (which is the only time there are buses here). Auto traffic isn't ever moving at 50km/h at this time, and most of the time cyclists are actually moving faster than autos on the stretch where there are buses.

I've actually spent a great deal of time on Richmond at rush hour, living at Church and Richmond. You're absolutely right that the average speed of bikes is higher than that of cars. But safety is based on instantaneous speed, which seems to vary 0 and 45.

Overtaking a stopped bus on a bicycle is not a safe manoeuvre by any stretch of the imagination, mostly because of the blind spots on the bus.

 

[LNahid2000]

I've actually spent a great deal of time on Richmond at rush hour, living at Church and Richmond. You're absolutely right that the average speed of bikes is higher than that of cars. But safety is based on instantaneous speed, which seems to vary 0 and 45.

I don't think speed is really the issue here anyway. You shouldn't be overtaking a bus period if a car behind you needs to suddenly slow down to not hit you. Being an avid cyclist myself, I cannot believe the number of cyclists who switch lanes without doing a shoulder check.

 

[reaperexpress]

I don't think speed is really the issue here anyway. You shouldn't be overtaking a bus period if a car behind you needs to suddenly slow down to not hit you. Being an avid cyclist myself, I cannot believe the number of cyclists who switch lanes without doing a shoulder check.

No, indeed it isn't the issue. I'd say the main issues are the blind spots on the bus and the fact that the TTC may re-install the streetcar track from Church to Spadina.

 

[UserNameToronto]

...t the TTC may re-install the streetcar track from Church to Spadina.

Really? Why - a special downtown circulatory service?

Richmond-Adelaide bike lane report: balmy +5c this morning, I was in a back of 6 from Sherbourne to Bay.

I had the odd experience of being closely followed by a Honda sport motorcycle in the Adelaide cycle lane from Victoria to Jarvis (whereafter he passed me on the right and continued in the bike lane at 60kph or more). Kind of freaked me out. The next day, there was a cyclist-motorist spat at Adelaide and Jarvis - they were both yelling at eachother causing a scene (I didn't see what the original incident was). With Adelaide reduced to 1 auto lane at Jarvis, there is a major motorist back up along Adelaide and I think it's causing some ill will towards the bike lane.

 

[reaperexpress]

Really? Why - a special downtown circulatory service?

No, just route diversions. Given the frequency of the 501 and 504, if one gets diverted onto the other, both routes get completely screwed up.

 

[UserNameToronto]

Simply a lovely ride into work this morning (in spite of the snow). The Sherbourne and Richmond bike lanes are clear of snow and well salted.

Every morning I see the same cyclist coming east along Adelaide or Shuter, then hanging a left to go north on Sherbourne. Let me paint a picture: heavyset build, $2000 Dutch cargo bike with a ~5 year old child in it, lime green helmet w/ GoPro cam, and that air of righteous indignation that only a truly committed cyclo-warrior can muster. Nearly every day I watch this person have a confrontation with another cyclist, motorist, or pedestrian. This morning I saw them yelling like a maniac at a car crossing the bike lane at Sherbourne & Britian St. Has anyone else taken notice of this particular fellow traveler? I wonder what their story is.

 

[nfitz]

No, just route diversions. Given the frequency of the 501 and 504, if one gets diverted onto the other, both routes get completely screwed up.

If they were to build a new subway station at and Queen/City Hall, I'd expect they'd have to put that track back in to provide 501 service during a long-term closure. Perhaps even extend it past the Sherbourne construction site as well.

 

[ShonTron]

Every morning I see the same cyclist coming east along Adelaide or Shuter, then hanging a left to go north on Sherbourne. Let me paint a picture: heavyset build, $2000 Dutch cargo bike with a ~5 year old child in it, lime green helmet w/ GoPro cam, and that air of righteous indignation that only a truly committed cyclo-warrior can muster. Nearly every day I watch this person have a confrontation with another cyclist, motorist, or pedestrian. This morning I saw them yelling like a maniac at a car crossing the bike lane at Sherbourne & Britian St. Has anyone else taken notice of this particular fellow traveler? I wonder what their story is.

I know exactly who this guy is. He goes by @pedalpapa on Twitter.