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Crosstown LRT | Metrolinx

max

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My daughter company is already looking at her coming in once or twice a week and that will save her no less than a hour a day of traveling by highway to/from work and having to replace a car every 3 years.
What does your daughter do to her car that wears it out in 3 years? o_O
 

drum118

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What does your daughter do to her car that wears it out in 3 years? o_O
She gets another one either leasing or buying it as she puts over 100,000 km on it.
 
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toronto647

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Honestly I agree about the transit priority comments individuals are making however at this point the focus should be entirely on completing the crosstown. Remember we still have crosstown west (to the airport) and crosstown east (to UTSC/PanAm Centre) so all the focus should be on getting those approved and shovels in the ground. Once that occurs and this line is guaranteed to really be "crosstown" in nature and the we can start discussions about priority signalling. At this point it is a waste of time and we should all be advocating and spending our energy on getting both ends completed ASAP.
 

drum118

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Honestly I agree about the transit priority comments individuals are making however at this point the focus should be entirely on completing the crosstown. Remember we still have crosstown west (to the airport) and crosstown east (to UTSC/PanAm Centre) so all the focus should be on getting those approved and shovels in the ground. Once that occurs and this line is guaranteed to really be "crosstown" in nature and the we can start discussions about priority signalling. At this point it is a waste of time and we should all be advocating and spending our energy on getting both ends completed ASAP.
Welcome to the decade or century when transit gets built in Toronto, not the ASAP.

Yonge Line approved 1910 and Open When??
Queen St Underground approved 1910, 1940 and still not built.
DRL been around since 1908 and still not built
Transit City to be built 2008, scrap by Rob Ford 2010
QQE was to be built 2010 and still waiting.
Look at the history of what was proposed to be built over the decades to see if any of it was built.
Talk is cheap, but until the money is on the table, what decade will it happen, especially with the COVID-19 mess??
 

Streety McCarface

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Welcome to the decade or century when transit gets built in Toronto, not the ASAP.

Yonge Line approved 1910 and Open When??
Queen St Underground approved 1910, 1940 and still not built.
DRL been around since 1908 and still not built
Transit City to be built 2008, scrap by Rob Ford 2010
QQE was to be built 2010 and still waiting.
Look at the history of what was proposed to be built over the decades to see if any of it was built.
Talk is cheap, but until the money is on the table, what decade will it happen, especially with the COVID-19 mess??
Don't forget:
Eglinton West Subway approved in the 80s, under construction in the 90s, scrapped and filled. Replaced with an LRT 30 years later
Sheppard (full) approved in the 80s, truncated on both ends and remains a stub to this day
Streetcar abandonment ever since the 50s
Scarborough and Etobicoke Light Rail since the 70s, an FM solution built in Scarborough and nothing built in Etobicoke. Subway delayed at least 10 years, probably 20-30
Lack of Streetcar system capacity enhancements (Despite exploding ridership)
Signal Block signaling on half the subway system for the foreseeable future
No Official Obico Yard plans
Signal priority BS on the 501, 509, 510, 511, 512, 514
SOGR deferring

Transit has been screwed in this city for decades and it's not just a few potential subway extensions.
 

Towered

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Don't forget:
Eglinton West Subway approved in the 80s, under construction in the 90s, scrapped and filled. Replaced with an LRT 30 years later
Sheppard (full) approved in the 80s, truncated on both ends and remains a stub to this day
Streetcar abandonment ever since the 50s
Scarborough and Etobicoke Light Rail since the 70s, an FM solution built in Scarborough and nothing built in Etobicoke. Subway delayed at least 10 years, probably 20-30
Lack of Streetcar system capacity enhancements (Despite exploding ridership)
Signal Block signaling on half the subway system for the foreseeable future
No Official Obico Yard plans
Signal priority BS on the 501, 509, 510, 511, 512, 514
SOGR deferring

Transit has been screwed in this city for decades and it's not just a few potential subway extensions.
It's Toronto's Great Shame. I don't expect the regressive civic culture here to ever change significantly enough to make such projects a reality within a reasonable time frame. Now with the pandemic, the politicians will have yet another convenient excuse to avoid investing in transit expansion for another generation.
 

sixrings

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If because of the pandemic more people will be working from home and less people are converting maybe we can all save some money and time and transfer this plan to Transit City.
 

Streety McCarface

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If because of the pandemic more people will be working from home and less people are converting maybe we can all save some money and time and transfer this plan to Transit City.
No.

If the city/metrolinx can't build light rail with proper signal priority, then I'd rather see nothing built on most of the other transit city corridors (Sheppard East, Don Mills, Eglinton East unless they split the line at Laird or Science Centre). Jane and Waterfront can stay, but building "rapid transit" that's going to be slower than the bus is an insanely asinine use of funds, especially if ridership is supposed to drop.

I'd rather see one DRL to Sheppard built than all of Transit City come to fruition under the current signal priority recommendations. Hell, I'd prefer the SSE over getting a 12 km/h LRT on Eglinton East + Sheppard + McCowan + Steeles in Scarborough alone. At least with the former, I won't have to wait at a stoplight.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a Metrolinx decision to try and kill on-surface LRT.
 

sixrings

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No.

If the city/metrolinx can't build light rail with proper signal priority, then I'd rather see nothing built on most of the other transit city corridors (Sheppard East, Don Mills, Eglinton East unless they split the line at Laird or Science Centre). Jane and Waterfront can stay, but building "rapid transit" that's going to be slower than the bus is an insanely asinine use of funds, especially if ridership is supposed to drop.

I'd rather see one DRL to Sheppard built than all of Transit City come to fruition under the current signal priority recommendations. Hell, I'd prefer the SSE over getting a 12 km/h LRT on Eglinton East + Sheppard + McCowan + Steeles in Scarborough alone. At least with the former, I won't have to wait at a stoplight.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a Metrolinx decision to try and kill on-surface LRT.
That's true. Metrolinx is pure evil. As incompetent as they are they probably invented covid-19 just to not build a subway to Scarborough. Bastards.
 

Aplus23

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No.

If the city/metrolinx can't build light rail with proper signal priority, then I'd rather see nothing built on most of the other transit city corridors (Sheppard East, Don Mills, Eglinton East unless they split the line at Laird or Science Centre). Jane and Waterfront can stay, but building "rapid transit" that's going to be slower than the bus is an insanely asinine use of funds, especially if ridership is supposed to drop.

I'd rather see one DRL to Sheppard built than all of Transit City come to fruition under the current signal priority recommendations. Hell, I'd prefer the SSE over getting a 12 km/h LRT on Eglinton East + Sheppard + McCowan + Steeles in Scarborough alone. At least with the former, I won't have to wait at a stoplight.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was a Metrolinx decision to try and kill on-surface LRT.
Good thing your not in charge of anything related to transit. Why would a bus be faster than a train even with no signal priority. The bus has to stop at the same red light as well. We need to get this Rapid priority out of our heads. It's up to the individual to make it to their destination on time. Leave your location with ample amount of time to make it to your destination. Your employer doesn't give a crap about transit delays or traffic delays. Transit is supposed to help the masses get from one point or another safely and efficiently.

I'll take transit city with poor signaling over subways that don't help the masses.
 

Streety McCarface

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Good thing your not in charge of anything related to transit. Why would a bus be faster than a train even with no signal priority. The bus has to stop at the same red light as well. We need to get this Rapid priority out of our heads. It's up to the individual to make it to their destination on time. Leave your location with ample amount of time to make it to your destination. Your employer doesn't give a crap about transit delays or traffic delays. Transit is supposed to help the masses get from one point or another safely and efficiently.

I'll take transit city with poor signaling over subways that don't help the masses.
3 things — Acceleration, stopping time, and Stop requirements. Stop placement will also likely play a role.

Buses accelerate faster than LRVs, and are at stops for about half the time as a typical train. Based on my experience with the iON, stopped time for an LRV is 17-20 seconds, compared to a bus' 7-12. This is mainly due to door speeds but also due to passenger loading characteristics.

Not all buses have to wait for left turns. Modern signaling often shortens the left turn cycle or eliminates it when traffic isn't high enough to justify cycling through it, but it generally only occurs in one direction.

If you want people to use transit, it has to be fast, frequent, and reliable. Surface LRT in the way the city is building it only partially solves the reliability aspect (in the event of a blockage/derailment, the bus is more reliable). It reduces the frequency and probably won't increase the train speed. Look at the 509 before and after the redoing of Queen's Quay — trip times increased by like 10%, and that's downtown. You could make the argument that stop spacing didn't change, but the 905 express only stopped at the same stops as the crosstown for those that live near the bus stops. For those that will have to walk an additional half kilometer to their stop, that adds 10 minutes to their commute, and it's not made up while taking the LRT (on the on-street section).

Do the vast majority of people choose to take the 506 over Line 2? No...why not? Because Line 2 is twice as fast as the 506. I'm not saying we should get rid of the 506 (in fact I think there's a fair case for an extension in the west). Speed is that much more important in the suburbs because the alternative is driving. If you can't make transit faster than driving, then most people will just drive. The TTC isn't particularly cheap anyways. I want LRT to succeed in this city, but if the city keeps dragging its feet on actually making it work, then you're going to doom the technology. If they want on-street LRT, it needs signal priority.

Subways that don't help the masses?
A DRL Short (~300K) would help more people than all of transit city less Eglinton (Finch (50K), Sheppard (30K), Eglinton East (30K), Scarborough Malvern (60K), Jane (30K), Waterfront (30K), Don Mills (40K)) combined, and the former would be cheaper.

Yonge north would help > 150K people (probably more), and cost the same as Jane, Eglinton East, Sheppard, and Don Mills combined (~130K PPD).

The TYSSE cost 3.2 billion, helps at least 100K people, and cost the same as Sheppard, Eglintonton East, and Don Mills, and that line was considered wasteful.

And if you want to rule out all subway extensions, then invest that 8 billion dollars in expanding the streetcar and bus fleets, fixing & resignaling the subways, adding cars to Line 1 and replacing the T1s, make all stations accessible, improving bus and streetcar frequencies throughout the system, and other SOGR measures. Investing money in a technology that is barely improving things doesn't help our SOGR backlog.

That's true. Metrolinx is pure evil. As incompetent as they are they probably invented covid-19 just to not build a subway to Scarborough. Bastards.
You don't think Metrolinx wasn't politically motivated to decrease the success of the surface portion of the crosstown? It sure would make their plans for the SSE, EWLRT, and Ontario line look good by comparison.
 

sixrings

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3 things — Acceleration, stopping time, and Stop requirements. Stop placement will also likely play a role.

Buses accelerate faster than LRVs, and are at stops for about half the time as a typical train. Based on my experience with the iON, stopped time for an LRV is 17-20 seconds, compared to a bus' 7-12. This is mainly due to door speeds but also due to passenger loading characteristics.

Not all buses have to wait for left turns. Modern signaling often shortens the left turn cycle or eliminates it when traffic isn't high enough to justify cycling through it, but it generally only occurs in one direction.

If you want people to use transit, it has to be fast, frequent, and reliable. Surface LRT in the way the city is building it only partially solves the reliability aspect (in the event of a blockage/derailment, the bus is more reliable). It reduces the frequency and probably won't increase the train speed. Look at the 509 before and after the redoing of Queen's Quay — trip times increased by like 10%, and that's downtown. You could make the argument that stop spacing didn't change, but the 905 express only stopped at the same stops as the crosstown for those that live near the bus stops. For those that will have to walk an additional half kilometer to their stop, that adds 10 minutes to their commute, and it's not made up while taking the LRT (on the on-street section).

Do the vast majority of people choose to take the 506 over Line 2? No...why not? Because Line 2 is twice as fast as the 506. I'm not saying we should get rid of the 506 (in fact I think there's a fair case for an extension in the west). Speed is that much more important in the suburbs because the alternative is driving. If you can't make transit faster than driving, then most people will just drive. The TTC isn't particularly cheap anyways. I want LRT to succeed in this city, but if the city keeps dragging its feet on actually making it work, then you're going to doom the technology. If they want on-street LRT, it needs signal priority.

Subways that don't help the masses?
A DRL Short (~300K) would help more people than all of transit city less Eglinton (Finch (50K), Sheppard (30K), Eglinton East (30K), Scarborough Malvern (60K), Jane (30K), Waterfront (30K), Don Mills (40K)) combined, and the former would be cheaper.

Yonge north would help > 150K people (probably more), and cost the same as Jane, Eglinton East, Sheppard, and Don Mills combined (~130K PPD).

The TYSSE cost 3.2 billion, helps at least 100K people, and cost the same as Sheppard, Eglintonton East, and Don Mills, and that line was considered wasteful.

And if you want to rule out all subway extensions, then invest that 8 billion dollars in expanding the streetcar and bus fleets, fixing & resignaling the subways, adding cars to Line 1 and replacing the T1s, make all stations accessible, improving bus and streetcar frequencies throughout the system, and other SOGR measures. Investing money in a technology that is barely improving things doesn't help our SOGR backlog.



You don't think Metrolinx wasn't politically motivated to decrease the success of the surface portion of the crosstown? It sure would make their plans for the SSE, EWLRT, and Ontario line look good by comparison.
First of all I am not anti subway. However I am pro LRT. It seems if you are pro LRT then you are labeled anti subway. The DRL should be a subway. That said I am not for these suburban subway extensions. And that isn't because of spite or because I would use the DRL but rather because of numbers. AS you said the DRL will move quite a few people. On the other hand we could extend the Sheppard subway a short distance or build a complete Sheppard LRT. Im in favour of the LRT. Moving people around the suburbs is a tricky thing. I grew up near finch in Scarborough and loved the finch express. The finch express had to travel in mixed traffic though. A LRT would be in its own lane making it more reliable, smoother, and could be scheduled frequently based on its reliability. Also I dont think comparing the LRT lines as TC intended to the 506 is at all fair. One the 506 has far more lights in its way so it would have to stop far more frequently. Plus the stop spacing of the TC lines was much further apart.. Sure it isn't as fast as a subway and definitely not as fast as a car but the TC LRT lines would be significantly faster than the current busses it would replace and the 506 you have compared it to. An LRT network would mean that there are more lines increasing the speed of transit trips overall. Besides most of the trips in scarborough are within scarborough. Subway advocates will say that is because there isnt a subway which may be true but we simply do not know. Anyways a network is important to myself as a rider.
 
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