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Creationism vs Evolution

Creationism or Evolution?

  • All life was created by some divine being(s)

    Votes: 4 5.8%
  • Life on this planet originated and evolves from natural processes

    Votes: 65 94.2%

  • Total voters
    69
Yeah, suddenly this thread got good again. Truthers? CIA covert asassinations? Religious tyrants (the so-called secular US gov't) always finding a pretext for their tyranny (interventionism, resources extraction/depletion, imposition of rules and values), whereby it is useless for the innocent (Afghan civilians) to try by reasoning to get justice (are Al Qaeda recruits crazed savages just out for Western blood or are they freedom fighters lashing out against Western occupation/new imperialism?)?

Bring it on.

For the record I believe in nothing (Nihilism). Everything is the result of random nothingness, just the endless cyclic transformation of matter by energy (i.e. natural unintelligible forces).
 
What?! You did give me a chuckle there Prometheus, thanks. My thinking, or doubting is that deep though.

LOL! well played! :)

you can always conduct scientific experiments to test if you're heterosexual by looking at pictures of naked women on the internet. if you wanna do a double blind experiment, get a woman to cover your eyes first with her boobs and then her butt cheeks. ;)

cheers to inquiry! had you been certain, you would have to abstain from conducting such experiments as described above.
 
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We know that Hitler staged the Reichstag fire, we know that the US stood down when Pearl Harbour was attacked (after which the US public overwhelmingly supported the war effort), we know that the CIA has hired guns who aim to breakup governing parties that it doesn't agree with (John Perkins among many others has come forward admitting as much), we know that aspartame was only approved by the FDA when Donald Rumselfd overturned the FDA's decision to not allow it (and then he went on to become the CEO of Searle, the company holding the rights to it), we know the plans to invade Afghanistan were on Bush's desk 2 days prior to 9/11 (coincidence or not, how can that not sound fishy?) .... we know of hundreds of more examples of corrupt behavior by the public sector. The US gov't has directly funded Bin laden (and seemingly let him go about his merry way despite having ample means to catch him), they have sold weapons to terrorist cells - these are all well documented facts. I didn't say I subscribe to any crazy conspiracy theories, but based on the facts at hand, I believe it's very likely that terrorist groups are state sponsored (we know for a fact several are). We also know for a fact that these perpetual wars the US has entered in are making billionaires out of Americans while ramping up inflation by lending more money to itself at high interest rates.

None of this is "circumstantial" evidence. In fact, it is just a jumble of faulty reasoning. Saying that you think something is so does not automatically mean it is so. Your suspicions are not a valid stand-in for evidence.

Simply put, you are a true believer in conspiracy theories.

There is zero circumstantial evidence to justify a belief in any of the crazy stories propagated by the various religions around the world.

Really? Did it ever occur to you that a belief in god stands as a type of statement that there is a purpose for the existence of the universe? A reason for its existence? While not scientifically valid, this mindset essentially speaks to the idea of a search for structure and meaning - if not truth (since you brought up that word earlier). If you ever bother to check the history of science you will find a very profound interplay between science and religion - that's if you ever bother to check. You might also wonder where the spirit of the idea that the universe is built upon a set of fundamental principles comes from. You'll find that concept intertwines at many points with monotheism.
 
LOL! well played! :)

you can always conduct scientific experiments to test if you're heterosexual by looking at pictures of naked women on the internet. if you wanna do a double blind experiment, get a woman to cover your eyes first with her boobs and then her butt cheeks. ;)

cheers to inquiry! had you been certain, you would have to abstain from conducting such experiments as described above.
Sorry, meant to say Not that deep.
 
For the record I believe in nothing (Nihilism). Everything is the result of random nothingness, just the endless cyclic transformation of matter by energy (i.e. natural unintelligible forces).

Nihilism does not mean that there is nothing. It is a philosophical doctrine that suggests that life is without objective meaning or purpose.

Belief in nothing may be your (empty) cup of tea, but as an alternative consider Modal Realism as argued by the philosopher David K. Lewis in his book On the Plurality of Worlds. In short, Lewis argues that all possible worlds are real and actual worlds. Or, in other words, if it can exist, it does exist - even if the extravagance of that world exceeds your capacity to imagine it.

If your point is that the universe is profoundly empty, Lewis argues that it is profoundly full.
 
Good grief ... what is wrong with people? I'd really like to see the methodology on that poll; it seems bizarre that so many people would say such a thing.

Hmm, and only 6% here believe in creationism - which while unlikely, certainly seems a lot more plausible than the US government crashing jets into the Pentagon and World Trade Centre. I wonder how 9/11 would poll here ...

I'm sure that poll is more a reflection of Canadians' dissatisfaction with US foreign policy than a true belief that the US government planned 9/11.
 
Why are these things viewed as mutually exclusive? Even the Catholic Church has accepted Darwinian evolution and the evolution of man into his current form through a Darwinian process. The church has even spoken out against recent fads like Intelligent Design. I would suggest that those who suggest that man was pre-destined to arise from the evolutionary process or believe that the process is somehow untrue or flawed, presume to know the mind of the Divine (who if we are to believe created all things, then most certainly created the evolutionary process as well). As the Church has pointed out, what is relevant is that God created man (and all creation), not how it was accomplished.

On the broader issue, what bothers me these days is the increasingly rabid atheism. To me, such people are just as offensive as the Jehovah's Witnesses who wake me up on Saturday morning. Just like it should be none of my business what you believe, why should it be your business what I believe? I get the sense these days that atheists are working overtime to "convert" people to their point of view.

I agree with kEiThZ, I couldn't have said it any better!
 
Wow, I'm shocked. I didn't think anyone could that gullible. I guess all the spam in my mailbox should be proof otherwise.

Well you grossly underestimated just how many believed in it. My mind is still open on the matter, but it's clear that the proverbial ball was dropped too many times for people not to start asking questions. I wouldn't call such people "nutters".

Are you suggesting that a government that couldn't even fake any evidence of WMD in a war zone that they occupied managed to pull off something like this?

No, they stated they had proof that there were WMD's and there wasn't (this "proof" was never made public either)... then they invaded anyway. Make of it what you will.

Pearl Harbour ... yeah, it was Americans bombing Pearl Harbour ... get real. There's some evidence that someone was asleep at the switch and didn't react to warnings they should have ... but isn't that always the case?

Perhaps you should read Robert Stinnett's Day of Deceit. Government documents prove that the US wasn't just asleep at the wheel, they were tracking the Japanese Navy the entire time. Again, make of that what you will.


None of this is "circumstantial" evidence. In fact, it is just a jumble of faulty reasoning. Saying that you think something is so does not automatically mean it is so. Your suspicions are not a valid stand-in for evidence.
Simply put, you are a true believer in conspiracy theories.


gristle, this isn't the first time you've made wild assumptions about me. The Pearl Harbour stand down isn't a "jumble of faulty reasoning", neither is Hitler's Reichstag fire. These are now well documented, well supported events. I don't subscribe to JFK assassination theories, fake moon landing or even 9/11 theories... I simply stated that corruption and deceit has always existed and likely still does exist. Your reading comprehension skills need an adjustment because you're drawing some wild conclusions.

Really? Did it ever occur to you that a belief in god stands as a type of statement that there is a purpose for the existence of the universe? A reason for its existence? While not scientifically valid, this mindset essentially speaks to the idea of a search for structure and meaning - if not truth (since you brought up that word earlier).

So a belief in the flying spaghetti monster or invisible pink unicorn stands as a type of statement that there is a purpose for the existence of the universe? A reason for its existence? While not scientifically valid, this mindset essentially speaks to the idea of a search for structure and meaning...

I might as well just believe that Russel's celestial teapot is out there orbiting the sun too right?

To quote Russell himself:

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense. If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time


I'm sure that poll is more a reflection of Canadians' dissatisfaction with US foreign policy than a true belief that the US government planned 9/11.

What about the UT poll? All of the other countless polls? Everyone just re-interpreted the question to have an entirely different meaning (all coincidentally arriving at the same interpretation), then answered accordingly?
 
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gristle, this isn't the first time you've made wild assumptions about me. The Pearl Harbour stand down isn't a "jumble of faulty reasoning", neither is Hitler's Reichstag fire. These are now well documented, well supported events. I don't subscribe to JFK assassination theories, fake moon landing or even 9/11 theories... I simply stated that corruption and deceit has always existed and likely still does exist. Your reading comprehension skills need an adjustment because you're drawing some wild conclusions.

You have mixed up a few actual events with ones that are without any basis. You do so in order to try to equate actual events with the conspiracy theories you believe in. This is merely a low-grade propaganda technique, and not much more. My reading skills are just fine; its your reasoning skills that need sharpening. You might march around putting the beliefs of other people down, but you clearly fail to see - to comprehend - that you have your own large set of unproven and unverified beliefs. That comes off as quite hypocritical wonderboy.

So a belief in the flying spaghetti monster or invisible pink unicorn stands as a type of statement that there is a purpose for the existence of the universe? A reason for its existence? While not scientifically valid, this mindset essentially speaks to the idea of a search for structure and meaning...

I might as well just believe that Russel's celestial teapot is out there orbiting the sun too right?

What does your silly reference to spaghetti have to do with anything? And of Russel's quote, so what? I've provided you with one line of reasoning for why people believe in a god. I've gone a step further and indicated to you that - regardless of your ignorance on the topic - there is long intertwined relationship between science and religion. I've also pointed out to you that the spirit of a search for fundamental laws of nature has a very close relationship to monotheism (fundamental cause, single set of laws, origin of causation). Your reaction is to disparage these things because you do not understand them.

Believe it not wonderboy many scientists explore fundamental questions about nature because they are seeking elemental cause and and some sort of meaning for it. They do not do so because science has already told them that there are any fundamental causes or any meanings to nature, but because they believe that there are fundamental causes and meanings to nature. Your portrayal of science is often so wrong-headed that it comes off as naive. Are you aware that human beings have ventured only as far as the moon? Are you aware that human radio signals have travelled out over only a tiny fraction of the galaxy? Yet there is a belief that the "laws" of nature are the same everywhere in the universe - that would inevitably include all places in the universe that no human being has ever been to - and possibly where no human will ever go. That's a belief that operationalizes many different scientific endevours wonderboy, and it is motivated by a belief.

And by the way, it's Russell's teapot, not Russel. At least spell his name properly.
 
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By believing, you still believe in something.

If that something is in nothing, then I agree with you. When I say nothing I mean there is no higher meaning or explanation for why we're here, how we came to be or what happens after we die. It's just a random coincide that we exist at all. Weak-minded people may turn to dogma for solace, something to contradict the reality that their lives truly are of no intrinsic value as much as the next person; but I choose to accept life is what it really is, devoid of any real intent or purpose. Not having to worry about the fate of my soul (because I don't have one!) frees my mind to entertain many subjects of interest that an obtuse thinker, so entrapped by their beliefs, would refuse to consider.
 
It's just a random coincide that we exist at all. Weak-minded people may turn to dogma for solace, something to contradict the reality that their lives truly are of no intrinsic value as much as the next person; but I choose to accept life is what it really is, devoid of any real intent or purpose. Not having to worry about the fate of my soul (because I don't have one!) frees my mind to entertain many subjects of interest that an obtuse thinker, so entrapped by their beliefs, would refuse to consider.
I suppose an serial rapist, murderer, thief and other criminal types share a similar thinking to break free of morality, if there are no consequences (assuming the cops don't catch you) one could do anything.
 

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