Cracks appear in Tory alliance

[adma]

^ Are you serious? Layton strikes me as the most polished, slick politician of the lot. He definitely has a car-salesman quality about him, made more evident by the way he talks down to us about the 'kitchen table'.

...to a fault, perhaps?

 

[Brandon716]

Hopefully an election will be in the works soon. Ignatieff could have been PM for a few months at this point.

 

[lordmandeep]

I think its a 50/50 chance for Harper and for Igantieff now.


The Tories will have little to run on unlike the last two elections.

 

[ungodlycrosscheck]

Hopefully an election will be in the works soon. Ignatieff could have been PM for a few months at this point.

I still keep waiting for him to actually articulate something close to a vision for public policy. But hey, he wrote like 18 books and taught at Havard, that should be good enough, who needs policy?

there is a clear faction of Progressive Conservatives who still aren't on board with the leading Alliance faction

Those factions existed in the Mulroney years as well.

Keithz posting has been pretty accurate on this thread, I'll add my two cents worth as an up close observer of morale in the party... there is no "rift" in the party between regional and or social-conservative/libertarian elements. Period.

 

[afransen]

I still keep waiting for him to actually articulate something close to a vision for public policy. But hey, he wrote like 18 books and taught at Havard, that should be good enough, who needs policy?



Those factions existed in the Mulroney years as well.

Keithz posting has been pretty accurate on this thread, I'll add my two cents worth as an up close observer of morale in the party... there is no "rift" in the party between regional and or social-conservative/libertarian elements. Period.

The CPC didn't release their platform until 6 days before election day this past fall. I can forgive Iggy for not publishing his platform before an election has been called.

I guess we'll have to take your word that the CPC is one big lovefest, and simultaneously ignore grumblings from some wings of the party. There are many former PCs who are displeased with how the show is being run at the moment.

 

[kEiThZ]

Last year when The Star was reporting a rift between Dion Liberals and other Liberals, you ate it up. Now that they are being critical of the Conservatives you cry "its just the Star" as if its irrelevant.

I did nothing of the sort. Look up my posts on the issue. I would hate to see the demise or weakening of any of our political parties in Canada. I am a firm believer in having a strong opposition. I didn't support Dion to be sure and I was critical of him moving the Liberals leftward but I would never 'eat up' stories about or wish for the demise of the Liberal Party. It's the party I have voted for the most, have given money to and have canvassed for on occassion. I may be critical of them now but that does not mean that I would wish them stormy weather. I have cautioned you before about ascribing your caustic Amercian political template to Canada. I will do so again. I may have more centrist views but that does not by any measure mean that I vote Conservative blindly at the ballot box. My vote varies from election to election depending on the issues I perceive to be important to myself and my community.

And yes I don't consider the Star a very credible newspaper. I remember how in high school and university never being allowed to cite the Star as a source for any paper since none of my teachers and profs thought it was a credible source either. This was despite the fact that the Star often handed out free newspapers on campus. And when it comes to politics, its blatant....the Star crowing about a Conservative rift is like the National Post carping about a rift in the Liberal ranks.

I still keep waiting for him to actually articulate something close to a vision for public policy. But hey, he wrote like 18 books and taught at Havard, that should be good enough, who needs policy?

I for one am more than willing to give the guy a chance. Between him and Harper its no contest for a centrist like me. I see in Harper and his ilk an increasing ideological rigidity that's no different than the Liberals of yesteryear. I am glad that for once the Liberals have elected a thoughtful leader who does not feel the need to subscribe to the raw anti-americanism that's been their underlying principle for foreign policy for nearly two decades. I am also glad to see some actual principle involved in expressing positions on issues like Israel-Palestine, Afghanistan, etc. This is a man who gets it.

Harper et al. on the other hand are starting to look more and more like the opponents they hated while on the opposition benches. Where's the fiscal restraint? And where's the reasoned foreign policy? We have lurched from a foreign policy defined by anti-americanism to an embrace of all things American. I honestly don't know what's worse here...the Liberals poking our best ally and neighbour in the eye repeatedly or the Conservatives sub-contracting our foreign and defence policies to Washington. There are things I like about the Conservatives to be sure, a big one being the fact that they have at least changed the culture of the civil service a tad in Ottawa (from being openly Liberal to now being closet Liberals) and they have added at least some contrasting views to the discourse on things like grants to sue the government itself on spurious rights cases, the status of Tamil Tigers in Canada, support for the military (a change from the Chretien years), etc. But, increasingly they are starting to look like they've run out of ideas and/or are there to just play political games not govern and work towards implementing their platform and principles.

Those factions existed in the Mulroney years as well.

Keithz posting has been pretty accurate on this thread, I'll add my two cents worth as an up close observer of morale in the party... there is no "rift" in the party between regional and or social-conservative/libertarian elements. Period.

Although I don't subscribe entirely to the Star's theory of an emerging chasm between the factions, I think there's more than enough evidence to show at least some friction. Where I part ways with the Star is the suggestion that a little spat over how Mulroney is being treated is evidence of a major split. That's BS. As much I don't like the way Mulroney is being treated, at the end of the day it's politics and he's disposable, even to his political allies. If anything the Conservatives probably fear what happened to Liberals over the sponsorship scandal. In the end, their division cost them the throne. I doubt the tories haven't learned lessons from that show.

 

[King of Kensington]

I'm so sick of this Mulroney was a red Tory nonsense...

 

[jks]

And yes I don't consider the Star a very credible newspaper. I remember how in high school and university never being allowed to cite the Star as a source for any paper since none of my teachers and profs thought it was a credible source either. This was despite the fact that the Star often handed out free newspapers on campus. And when it comes to politics, its blatant....the Star crowing about a Conservative rift is like the National Post carping about a rift in the Liberal ranks.

That's kind of strange actually, for a recent English project for school, we were only allowed to take articles from the Star, the Globe and Mail, and the National Post. And almost everyone brought in the Star. But yeah, the Star is Liberally-biased, almost as much as the Globe and the National Post are CPC-biased, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are not a credible source for anything.

On a side note, I think this would be an appropriate time to voice the stupidity of the Toronto Sun:

From Toronto Sun Sucks

Alright then, sorry to go off-topic.
The old PC party literally died though, when the CPC was created. Let's face it, today's Conservatives are not what John A Macdonald's party was all about. We now have a huge hole where there should be a centre-right party. Who do these people vote for, the Progressive Canadian Party??

 

[afransen]

Keith, I do hope that your professors allowed no newspapers or magazines to be used as sources. They are frequently wrong, and are often atrocious at fact checking.

 

[adma]

Though I'd give the Sun's Susan Dewar credit for creating the perfect Pinocchio-nosed McGuinty paradigm, to say nothing of her Water-Buffalo-hatted Harper. (Donato's Harper is absolutely inept, though.)

 

[Hydrogen]

That's kind of strange actually, for a recent English project for school, we were only allowed to take articles from the Star, the Globe and Mail, and the National Post. And almost everyone brought in the Star. But yeah, the Star is Liberally-biased, almost as much as the Globe and the National Post are CPC-biased, but that doesn't necessarily mean they are not a credible source for anything.

Your english project may have had to do with something other than using newspapers as sources of factual information. Maybe it was a comparative examination and analysis of how each paper covered a story. I don't know. But no one should use a newspaper as a primary source for research.

 

[lordmandeep]

I go to Wikipedia and learn general knowledge about something...

Then use the sources it cities, which are sometimes very scholarly sources.

I know its wrong, but no offense finding info in a book is far to difficult and 80% who do really see three-five words relating to what they are saying a paper and use it as a source. The Profs never check book sources, as they "Wow, he used a book source, very good..."

I think citing is generally a big waste of time unless your paraphrasing or quoting something directly.

 

[jks]

^ I agree with you there, unfortunately, It's required nonetheless.

 

[King of Kensington]

The old PC party literally died though, when the CPC was created. Let's face it, today's Conservatives are not what John A Macdonald's party was all about. We now have a huge hole where there should be a centre-right party. Who do these people vote for, the Progressive Canadian Party??

The Mulroney PC's weren't what John A. Macdonald's party was all about either...

 

[ungodlycrosscheck]

The CPC didn't release their platform until 6 days before election day this past fall. I can forgive Iggy for not publishing his platform before an election has been called.

B.S.

What is an election platform but a nice neat consolidated (and hopefully costed) summation of campaign promises made on the election trail. The Tories were making announcements throughout the campaign, who cares that the platform wasn't published until the end, that was Finley's strategy. I've dug into my war-room binder from the 08 campaign...

September 9, PM announces plan to cut the excise tax on diesel from four cents per litre to two cents

September 9, promise to restore Veterans Allowances for veterans living in Canada for more than 10 years who fought for the Commonwealth or Allied Forces during WWII

September 12, PM in Halifax promises to increase the threshold for foreign investment reviews to attract more investment in Canada, also pledges to open up regulated airline and uranium mining sector for foreign investment

September 13, New measures for increase certainty for small business in Canada by increasing the amount of income eligible for the reduced federal small business tax rate, to $500,000 allowing businesses to grow without jumping into a higher tax bracket. Additional promises to index the lifetime capital gains exemption, plans to reduce the paperwork burden, and providing a new $75 million venture capital fund through BDC

September 15, PM announces that self-employed Canadians will have access to maternity and parental benefits

September 16, PM in Kitchener, announces a plan to extend a first time homebuyers a tax credit for up to $5,000 off the closing costs on the purchase of a new home

Do you want me to go on? My campaign binder is a little thick, but I think my point is made.

Attempting to draw comparisions to Iggy's lack of ideas (heck, even a borrowed one) to the timing of the release of Tories' 08 platform is almost as laughable as the Opposition's attempt to make hay of the same the topic during the last election--it was a see through and desperate attempt to somehow legitimatize their petty allegations that this was proof of a hidden agenda. It was so far from reality, it was an insult to the intelligence of Canadians.

But hey, when your opponents don't like what you have to say, then change the channel.

Let's stick to topic, Iggy may be smart, but I'd like some evidence to suggest that he actually has an original idea... if we're giving the guy the keys to 24 Sussex he better start demonstrating that he's got the royal jelly to govern and articulate some sort of vision for the country.