Corktown

[DSC]

Ac new permit application for Black Irish


Location:
235 QUEEN ST E
TORONTO ON M5A 1S5

Ward 28: Toronto Centre-Rosedale


Application#:
14 141564 BLD 00 BA
Accepted Date:
Apr 11, 2014


Project:
Multiple Unit Building Other(BA)


Description:
Proposal to increase the occupancy and construct an outdoor patio to an existing ground floor restaurant - Black Irish Whiskey Bar Existing - 30 seats, Group E, no patio. Proposed - 80 seats, Group A2, 101 seats private patio


BA Zoning Review Not Started
Zone 3 Byam Grannum, Diane Contact Info
BA Code Review Pt3 Not Started
Code 3 Chan, Peter Contact Info
BA Fire Review Pt3 Not Started
Fire 3 Chan, Peter Contact Info

 

[JasonParis]

I guess this will be behind. It's currently a small gravel lot. Good use of space if so.

 

[toonderly]

Ac new permit application for Black Irish



Description:
Proposal to increase the occupancy and construct an outdoor patio to an existing ground floor restaurant - Black Irish Whiskey Bar Existing - 30 seats, Group E, no patio. Proposed - 80 seats, Group A2, 101 seats private patio

Interesting. Is it odd that they would apply for the increase as for an "existing" restaurant without actually having opened? I would have thought that it would be prudent to try to have some money coming in at the very least. (Although maybe I shouldn't assume that they would have a net positive income as a result.)

 

[DSC]

Interesting. Is it odd that they would apply for the increase as for an "existing" restaurant without actually having opened? I would have thought that it would be prudent to try to have some money coming in at the very least. (Although maybe I shouldn't assume that they would have a net positive income as a result.)

I think the 'existing' means there was an operating restaurant there until Black Irish came along but their permit was for fewer seats.

 

[Kingster]

I have heard that a new large format bakery\café is opening this summer at a corner location on King East with a very open façade to the sidewalk.

In 510 King East - just west of River - there will be a THOR coffee shop at the south-east corner, an as-yet unnamed spa, and a dentist, in addition to the existing Nissan dealer and the Healthy Road health store - this from the leasing agents.

 

[Kingster]

There are no official Corktown boundaries. The Wikipedia map is as reliable as anything else - it's an interpretation. There are many reasons why the boundary of a BIA is sometimes different than the boundary of a ratepayers association, which is often different again from the neighbourhood designations the City uses for social services, which can be different again from the boundaries the locals use, etc. etc. The boundaries of Corktown are strictly a matter of opinion and convention, and presumably will evolve over time.

Totally agree that the boundaries vary according to the source. But to the Corktown Residents & Business Association (CRBA), the boundaries in its articles of incorporation from 1996 are Berkeley, Shuter, the Don River, and Lakeshore Boulevard. So as a legal entity, it is very clear. It's just that being a legal entity doesn't mean much if no-one knows it! And last year, the boundary was slightly extended to include a small orphaned area north of Shuter on the east side of River up to Dundas that wasn't in anyone's association.

Actually, Corktown going down to Lakeshore Boulevard doesn't make much sense and it should just be down to the rail corridor. Any developable land down there either now or in the future, if the Gardiner were to come down for instance, would be better identified with the East Bayfront or Keating precincts.

 

[Skeezix]

So as a legal entity, it is very clear.

Not at all. CRBA is perfectly entitled to come up with its own boundary of the area in which it is interested/operates, but that's all it is. One private group with yet another opinion/interpretation of a neighbourhood's boundaries, to add to all the others. There is nothing official or determinative about it. Other residents/groups can prefer different boundaries, and they are just as valid. There are no official neighbourhood boundaries in Toronto. They are strictly a matter of opinion and convention (and of debate) and they evolve over time.

 

[DSC]

While I agree that boundaries of neighbourhoods are very fluid (and can overlap) it is maybe worth noting that the St Lawrence Neighbourhood Association has existed since 1982 and has a Letters Patent ( http://www.slna.ca/images/slna-incorporation.pdf ) under the Corporations Act dated 1983. The SLNA boundaries have always run from Yonge to Parliament and Queen to the rail corridor. The St Lawrence BIA started off in the area around the St Lawrence Market and its eastern boundary used to be Jarvis Street. A few years ago their boundary was extended east to Parliament so the BIA and the SLNA have almost the same boundaries.

 

[Skeezix]

I'm unclear why letters patent is relevant. All that means is that the group, like numerous other ratepayer groups, is incorporated (ratepayer groups cannot appear before the OMB or the courts in their capacity as a group unless they are incorporated, and there are financial benefits to incorporation). It doesn't give them any special authority (statutory, regulatory, or otherwise) to establish neighbourhood boundaries. All it is a private group, incorporated like many other private organizations, that has deemed neighbourhood boundaries for its own purposes. There is nothing stopping other neighbourhood groups emerging in St. Lawrence that have completely different boundaries. Or existing groups from changing the boundaries they use, on the basis of a number of possible motives (e.g. there is wide agreement that the neighbourhood boundary has changed, the group wants to extent its influence, the group needs to expand membership, etc.)

I'm not saying that there can't be general consensus as to a neighbourhood's boundaries. For some neighbourhoods, the boundaries are general accepted. It helps when community groups use those same boundaries. But that's all it is - general consensus. It can change and evolve. All it takes is some new development, the emergence of new resident or business groups, or even gentrification. But these boundaries are not official in any way.

Where one has a group like SNLA, which has been operating for 30+ years, the boundaries used by that group are often, but not always, generally indicative of the current general consensus of that neighbourhood's boundaries.

 

[JasonParis]

In 510 King East - just west of River - there will be a THOR coffee shop at the south-east corner, an as-yet unnamed spa, and a dentist, in addition to the existing Nissan dealer and the Healthy Road health store - this from the leasing agents.

Thor is excellent. I often frequent their Bathurst location. A great add for Corktown!

 

[DSC]

I do not disagree with you Skeezix, I was purely pointing out that boundaries of neighbourhoods are flexible and vary and can certainly overlap. In the case of Corktown and St Lawrence there is certainly an area of overlap between Berkeley and Parliament Streets. Though residents (or residential buildings) can be members of both or either or neither residents association the businesses within its boundaries MUST belong to the St Lawrence Market BIA as BIA fees are collected through the property tax and are obligatory. ("Once a BIA is approved by City Council, every business within its boundaries automatically becomes a member. There are no exceptions, under the principle that all who benefit should be required to bear their fair share of the cost of the program.") No doubt there are some businesses who are members of the St Lawrence BIA and also contribute to the Corktown Residents and Business Association and if the Corktown merchants ever formed an official BIA I am sure there would be discussion about adjusting the boundary because businesses cannot be in two BIAs (and would not want to be as it would mean paying two fees.)

 

[Skeezix]

^Agreed. And as you point out, the boundary of the BIA is no more determinative of a neighbourhood boundary than anything else.

I don't mean to be a harpy on this neighbourhood boundary issue. I actually usually find it quite interesting when people debate the extent of neighbourhoods, as it is reflective of our communal sense of place and the evolving nature of Toronto. What usually gets me going is when someone inevitably claims that a boundary is official, has some sort of legal status or is otherwise cast in stone, because (s)he saw it on a map on the City website, there used to be a welcome sign there in the 1980s, the local ratepayers/BIA/his mom's sewing circle use it as a boundary, etc.

 

[Graydon]

Interesting discussion in regards to BIA boundaries and mandatory inclusion. I think this back and forth is indicative of the very difficult challenge in defining neighbourhoods with solid lines when in most cases they tend to overlap. The inclusion of Berkeley Street within the St. Lawrence HCD Study is one area where this tension has played out - if Berkeley becomes identified as part of a "St Lawrence District", what claim does Corktown have to it? There are real challenges when identity and association are written into policy.

I think we're going to see these tensions come out much more if/when the city pushes through the Development Permit System, which requires communities/neighbourhoods to participate and lead the charge. Toronto requires much more robust neighbourhood and advocacy organizations, and I think these challenges will *hopefully* encourage their formulation.

 

[MrR]

In 510 King East - just west of River - there will be a THOR coffee shop at the south-east corner, an as-yet unnamed spa, and a dentist, in addition to the existing Nissan dealer and the Healthy Road health store - this from the leasing agents.

Is that in River City Phase one on the southeast corner?

Also does anyone know whats going in the main floor of the two units in the TCHC building on the south side?

 

[Kingster]

Is that in River City Phase one on the southeast corner?

Also does anyone know whats going in the main floor of the two units in the TCHC building on the south side?

510 King is north-west of the King/River intersection. River City is south-east of the intersection. Thor will be in the south-east corner of 510 King.

Sadly TCHC has not been at all forthcoming about the retail in its King Street senior's building - they do say they have been trying to land a grocer of some description but detail past that is non-existent. The two TCHC family buildings on River and St. Lawrence do not have any retail at grade.