City Selling Sidewalks, Kyle Rae says Pusateri's is the public

[Dilla]

I think lay-bys are justifiable only at "destinations" (subjective as that may be) such as hotels, large department stores etc. At those destinations, the rights of pedestrians and bicyclists should be subordinated. Heresy? Maybe, but I do believe there is a place for automobiles downtown.

Now that you mention it, I don't think the lay-by at Pusateri's is warranted, as it's not a large store for which people would specifically drive downtown.

As for why the City doesn't actively encourage these things, I think it's pretty clear that planners aren't really keen on them in principle but will occasionally make an exception on the merits. Moreover, governments are by their nature reactive -- even on issues officials deem good public policy.

And one shouldn't assume that private interests and the public good are mutually exclusive.

Thank you for that, well thought out, convincing post. I too don't mind lay-bys at certain destinations, and it is the circumstances as to how this one came about as much as the physical thing itself which lead to the bad taste in my mouth.

I don't mind automobiles downtown, but I'm not into the idea of making it much easier than it already is for car at the cost of bicycles and pedestrians. Hopefully my fear here is unwarranted, and the private interests in this case will be congruent with the public's. I certainly do not assume the two can never be the same. In this instance, we'll have to wait and see, I suppose.

Now that you mention it, I don't think the lay-by at Pusateri's is warranted, as it's not a large store for which people would specifically drive downtown.

This is part of the problem, there's now two very recent, very close to one another, right downtown. Is this a harbinger of things to come?

 

[Blovertis]

Is this a harbinger of things to come?

You're right -- we have to be on guard that this doesn't become the thin edge of the wedge. I'm sure there are a lot of Tim Horton's owners who would happily pay for a piece of the sidewalk.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Has "the physical thing itself" ever been a problem in any of the examples we're discussing? This is the first time I can recall the issue of lay-by design, and how lay-bys are actually being used, ever being discussed here. As mentioned earlier, two thirds of the one at the Royal York has been filled with planters and isn't used much by vehicles. The public will also use space - private and public - in ways that cannot always be anticipated by those of a strictly literal-minded public/private bent.

 

[Dilla]

I'm sure there are a lot of Tim Horton's owners who would happily pay for a piece of the sidewalk.

*Dilla shudders*

This is just it. If a business tried to open a drive-thru in this area, it'd be a no-go, but as it seems the city can decide on lay-bys without any consultation with the public, this could get out of hand fast, particularly with all the new developments going up in the area. What business wouldn't want one of these? It seems the city has now given itself a lot fewer reasons not to give them out.

 

[Dilla]

Has "the physical thing itself" ever been a problem in any of the examples we're discussing?

OMG, yes!

 

[Urban Shocker]

Other than to a few cyclists with road rage, I mean.

 

[adma]

Isn't there some kind of condo entrance porte-cochereish thing off Yorkville? How adaptable is that to some Pusateri-kiss'n'ride arrangement...

 

[Dilla]

Other than to a few cyclists with road rage, I mean.

Still determined to get the last word, eh? No matter how useless the comment...really.

This is just getting silly, I'm finished here.

 

[Urban Shocker]

Well, you're the one who admits to being in a "rage".

The College streetcar can get quite backed up in the mornings approaching Yonge; perhaps a lay-by at Days Hotel - where all the taxis are - would be useful? There are often delivery trucks around there in the mornings, too. Something's causing bottlenecks.

The idea behind lay-bys, whether for buses in the suburbs or on congested downtown streets, is the same: to get vehicles that are about to stop out of the way briefly and permit them to merge back in afterwards. Unlike some pull-ins, and exits from underground parking lots, they don't cut across the sidewalk. The sidewalks on Bloor, where the Holts one is going, are actually being widened.

The pull-in outside the Sony Centre is mostly used in the evenings when most performances take place - during the day pedestrians cut across it. Like the lay-by outside the Royal York which is mostly blocked with planters, the reality of how these things are actually used varies. The residents of Pantages condo for instance can use theirs, for a fee, by day or night.

 

[adma]

A Lay-By is a potato chip factory in Ottawa.

 

[Dilla]

Well, you're the one who admits to being in a "rage".

Lol wut?

So now I'm one of a few cyclists with road rage (I rarely ride a bike), and that's now what this argument is all about?
Where's Bolvertis? At least he made some sense.

PS- what would happen to the already thin (at best the width of a car) sidewalks on this part Collage with these new "lay-bys"?

 

[Urban Shocker]

I was curious to see why Dilla is - as he puts it - "in a rage" about lay-bys, so I checked out the Pusateris one this morning. It works fine. The valet guy sits in a little alcove and emerges now and then when a vehicle draws in. Someone flips him their keys. They go inside. He parks their car more neatly. He goes into the place for a coffee. He sits in his little alcove again. Cars, trucks, cyclists and buses pass by. Pedestrians have absolutely no problem whatsoever in continuing along the sidewalk. Everyone plays nicely.

No porte-cochereish thing off Yorkville, adma - though I believe the big new condo-hotel east of Bay will have one.

 

[Dichotomy]

The point about FedEx trucks, taxis, etc. is well taken. It is an urban planning (or lack thereof) nightmare that all these buildings are being thrown up and no allowances are being made for the delivery vehicles!
In a city of 4 lane roads, this is a crisis. Look at the mess Yonge/Bloor is now - single lane in both directions, due to construction. And now Bay St. is constricted to one lane for at least 2 years while yet another condo goes up.
Kingsway is restricted on BOTH sides while watermains are being worked on. Now sidewalk work has started at Jarvis/King.

This is just what I drove by TODAY. We have no idea how bad this city is (not) going to move in 5 or 10 years, yet we are worried about 'lay-bys?'
This city is a nightmare to navigate by car; I wouldn't dare drive a bicycle on these roads anymore!

[Shakes head.]

 

[urbandreamer]

^I think you're crazy! Most of the time, the roads are NOT congested. Besides, you could always move...like how about the Junction area?

 

[Dilla]

I was curious to see why Dilla is - as he puts it - "in a rage" about lay-bys

You're just not going to let my comment from weeks ago (which I later admitted was a bit too visceral) go are you?

PS - I hate to repeat myself, but my "rage" at the time was more to do with Mr. Rae's dismissive attitude and the whole circumstance surrounding this than anything else. But it's not nearly as fun to harp on about that, is it?

Signed,

One of a few cyclists with road rage