Torontovibe
Senior Member
Like Nathan Phillips Square!
|
|
|
City fed up with uncoordinated utility work
- Thread starter Automation Gallery
- Start date
Like Nathan Phillips Square!
Spoonman
Active Member
I should clarify - it looks like the sidewalk on the south side is being prepared for tree planting (the sidewalk slabs with the cutouts have been lifted out), whereas the cutouts on the north are filled with asphalt. Perhaps it's a temporary measure to keep people from tossing garbage in the holes?
nfitz
Superstar
If you look at the projects where they did try and do it all in a co-ordinated manner - Roncesvalles, St. Clair, and Bloor Street, things have gone very badly, it's taken longer and cost more than planned.
If suddenly Enbridge was digging a gas main the entire length of Dundas, I could see the issue. But if it only became clear that they had to do the work at a small fraction of their service connections recently, I don't the issue.
Do you suggest that maintenance work be done prematurely and pre-emptively?
CanadianNational
Senior Member
Just for a reminder, in line with what's being talked about - here's the University Ave. Memorial fountain, at Queen Street. Busted and defunct for - what? It had been defunct for a year last August. So we're coming up on two years.
http://torontoist.com/2010/08/for_a_water_feature_situated.php
http://torontoist.com/2010/08/for_a_water_feature_situated.php
Last edited:
TonyV
Senior Member
I have observed this lack of coordination for years and wondered when it's going to become an issue, and thankfully, this has happened. Thinking back, this topic did crop up in this forum prior to the election. (I'm too lazy to go and find those postings). Have the various departments at city hall been screwing the pooch, or what? There was an obvious opportunity for the city to effect some cost savings and to at least appear interested in project coordination, and it seems to me that the administrations (including Miller's) turned a blind eye on this challenge.
The current outrage creates a fabulous opportunity for the present administration to say "I told you so" and that really is a shame.
Aside: Hah! Torontovibe mentioned the Nathan Phillips Square rebuild effort just crawling along, well, it's almost a different topic, but, not really. I think I may create a different post (in the correct thread) about that. But frankly I am in a blissfully fabulous summer mood today and I don't want to rile myself up. Chill, TonyV.
The current outrage creates a fabulous opportunity for the present administration to say "I told you so" and that really is a shame.
Aside: Hah! Torontovibe mentioned the Nathan Phillips Square rebuild effort just crawling along, well, it's almost a different topic, but, not really. I think I may create a different post (in the correct thread) about that. But frankly I am in a blissfully fabulous summer mood today and I don't want to rile myself up. Chill, TonyV.
Torontovibe
Senior Member
Walking by City Hall today, around 2pm, I saw 10 guys working on the fountain (though 8 of the 10 were just standing around) and all of 1 guy working on the skating/snack shop pavilion. What can 1 guy do? No wonder it is taking so long.
spider
Senior Member
Cities are almost invariably poor managers of anything they touch because the people setting and administering policy are not professionals nor are their ultimate superiors, the elected officials whose
capricious whims they must satisfy. There is no incentive to excel at any level, the Union makes sure that the least capable or least motivated employee is treated and paid exactly the same as the best, brightest and hardest working member on the team.
Projects in the real world are managed by experienced people who are well paid and respected in their field. They are motivated by the knowledge that if they screw up they may never get a second chance. This is why St. Clair, Roncesvalles and Bloor Street were enormous fuck ups while 50 floor buildings rise to completion on time and on budget every time.
My ideal city would have no employees but that is not going to happen so let’s contract out as much as possible writing stringent bullet proof contracts to control costs. The City should not be an employment agency.
capricious whims they must satisfy. There is no incentive to excel at any level, the Union makes sure that the least capable or least motivated employee is treated and paid exactly the same as the best, brightest and hardest working member on the team.
Projects in the real world are managed by experienced people who are well paid and respected in their field. They are motivated by the knowledge that if they screw up they may never get a second chance. This is why St. Clair, Roncesvalles and Bloor Street were enormous fuck ups while 50 floor buildings rise to completion on time and on budget every time.
My ideal city would have no employees but that is not going to happen so let’s contract out as much as possible writing stringent bullet proof contracts to control costs. The City should not be an employment agency.
drum118
Superstar
You better add that both the Feds and the province do this also. 3 people doing one person job.
I have said for years there is too much me as team leader than a team with big ego's who have no idea how to run a project in the first place.
Then it is the case of "we have always done it and why should we have to change it now"
We need to reinvent the wheel so we can say we are doing something for our money knowning full well it can be done faster a cheaper in the first place.
jje1000
Senior Member
Part of the reason why some of these projects are delayed so much is exactly because of poor contracting and co-ordination- the city is far too lenient towards the contractors who screw up on the jobs, and to its subsidiary organizations who fail to inform each other of their plans. City workers aren't entirely to blame here.
Read here: http://www.roncesvallesvillage.ca/?p=738
1) The City of Toronto must establish and enforce deadlines on all City contracts with meaningful penalties for late completion.
"One of the most disruptive elements of construction is the uncertainty that it brings to a community. When a contractor faces no penalty for not completing work according to a schedule that they agree to and often set themselves, the only people who suffer are the residents and businesspeople in the community. This appears to be the case in Toronto, all too frequently.
Many other municipalities in the GTA do enforce late penalties in their contracts, and contractors frequently have simultaneous jobs with several municipalities. Logically, contracts without enforced late penalties take a back seat to those that do. Toronto’s neighbourhoods deserve to be on an equal footing with other communities in southern Ontario. The City of Toronto must establish and enforce deadlines on its contracts."
Last edited:
thepatrickblack
New Member
Yeah. It seems like they're making progress on that lately. At least they put a big new hole in the middle of it. Holes are progress, right?
cdr108
Senior Member
sadly, that seems to be typical of the unionized city work.
i've seen similar stuff happening with grass cutting of public parks ... 5 guys there, but only 1 driving the mower doing any work !?!
pman
Senior Member
I saw more or less the same thing recently in Chorley Park. The City could get the same work done with a lot fewer employees if it simply required them to do their jobs.
thepatrickblack
New Member
I hear this a lot, but judging city workers by a five second walk-by is not good evidence. Do you work for the city? How do we know it is overstaffed?
In addition, wouldn't these construction workers work for private company? They're not city workers, they work for companies the city hired.
spider
Senior Member
This thread was started to discuss the "uncoordinated" nature of City projects not the individual workers and their unions although God knows there is lots to discuss if it were.
The difference between the performance of City workers and those hired by private enterprises is Profit. If the lawn can be cut by 3 workers the private contractor will only put 3 people on the job because the City pays for grass cut not grass cutters. The City has more than 3 people available so the extra people watch grass being cut which is not considered poor management because cost is not a consideration and these extra people have to watch something.
The difference between the performance of City workers and those hired by private enterprises is Profit. If the lawn can be cut by 3 workers the private contractor will only put 3 people on the job because the City pays for grass cut not grass cutters. The City has more than 3 people available so the extra people watch grass being cut which is not considered poor management because cost is not a consideration and these extra people have to watch something.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
You have an overly romantic view of the private sector. This forum is riddled with posts from new condo buyers whose move-in dates have been delayed again and again due to construction timelines slipping. Complaints about workmanship are common as well. As with most things, some developers are better than others.
Virtually all construction work commissioned by the city is done by private contractors. The issue isn't with the quality of work necessarily but with an uncooperative bureaucracy of agencies public and private that don't effectively communicate. A lot of this is the city's fault, but at the same time if, for example, Enbridge doesn't proactively tell the city when they're going to need to replace their pipes, there's not a lot the city can do.
This problem is almost purely administrative. It's a very good opportunity for this new regime at City Hall to prove their effectiveness.