Church-Wellesley Village

[King of Kensington]

I only made one post here, so I think you might be confused (or maybe I am).

I agree with most of what you say. There certainly are "Jewish neighborhoods" and a majority of Jews in the GTA do live along the Bathurst corridor from St. Clair into Thornhill. And while you're right to point out that thousands of Italians and Chinese live outside their enclaves, with Jews it's in fact far, far more pronounced. The GTA west of Dufferin and east of Leslie has very, very few Jews. In fact the Jewish population is large enough for each Jewish neighborhood to have a different character - Forest Hill for wealthy Reform Jews, Bathurst-Lawrence for the Orthodox, Bathurst-Steeles for Russian immigrants, etc.

I also agree that demographic factors largely conspire to make the Annex have a significant Jewish population, but there are other factors. It is neighborhood chock full of urban intelligentsia types, a group that is disproportionately Jewish. For nostalgic value, it is near J.B. Salsberg's old turf, many of the Jews in the area are "red diaper babies" (although today that means voting for Olivia Chow and Rosario Marchese rather than for the CP or CPCML) And it's still on the Bathurst corridor to boot.

In other words, although not a majority, I'd say the Annex and thereabouts has a notable left-leaning secular Jewish subculture. Urbanvillageboy is right - the JCC philanthropists probably come across as suburban phillistines. The lack of full-fledged synagogues and day schools really tells us about the community's secular nature. They are less religious and more politically progressive than Jews further north.

 

[Disparishun]

I only made one post here, so I think you might be confused (or maybe I am).

Yep, think I'm confused! What you say makes sense. I am dubious about the left-leaning secular Jewish sub-culture part, though. A left-leaning secular sub-culture which is maybe a bit disproportionately Jewish, certainly. But to the extent there's anything demographically or culturally Jewish about that subculture on the whole, it seems more an accident of social networks cultivated in Forest Hill schools than anything else.

 

[King of Kensington]

I think we're about 95% in agreement, but I'll continue anyway...it depends on how you define a subculture. I've certainly met a lot of Jews in that area who while not religious are certainly identify very much as Jewish in a cultural sense and are interested in the Jewish history of the area, Zionism, etc. People like Rick Salutin for example.

 

[Disparishun]

I think we're about 95% in agreement, but I'll continue anyway...it depends on how you define a subculture. I've certainly met a lot of Jews in that area who while not religious are certainly identify very much as Jewish in a cultural sense and are interested in the Jewish history of the area, Zionism, etc. People like Rick Salutin for example.

Oh, more than 95% -- I agree with that, too. I just don't think that a series of atomized individuals, all with strong interests but unwilling to act on them in a communal or institutional sense, any kind of community makes. Many of the people in question are very reluctant to do anything openly "Jewish", especially if they have any inkling it might imply to others any connection with those "horrible suburban philistines" à la "people in Thornhill don't know about it". But communities cohere through doing, not just interest.

 

[King of Kensington]

.Many of the people in question are very reluctant to do anything openly "Jewish", especially if they have any inkling it might imply to others any connection with those "horrible suburban philistines" à la "people in Thornhill don't know about it". But communities cohere through doing, not just interest.

So attending the Jewish Film Festival at the Bloor Cinema or having the Sunday brunch at Free Times Cafe doesn't count?

 

[Disparishun]

So attending the Jewish Film Festival at the Bloor Cinema or having the Sunday brunch at Free Times Cafe doesn't count?

Good point.

 

[King of Kensington]

But don't some of the ultra-liberal downtown congregations constitute some sort of downtown Jewish community?

 

[allabootmatt]

I grew up Jewish in Rosedale. Try THAT for lonely.

 

[urbandreamer]

^Try growing up Jewish in small town Canada. ...Actually, the experiment (by pops) didn't work: result: I don't associate with Jewish culture and belong to no culture. Cool, eh?

 

[King of Kensington]

I grew up Jewish in Rosedale. Try THAT for lonely.

I can't speak for that experience but it's not as if Rosedale is the Kingsway or Leaside...

 

[allabootmatt]

I can't speak for that experience but it's not as if Rosedale is the Kingsway or Leaside...

Are they even WASPier? I mean, it's pretty hard to beat Rosedale for pur laine Upper Canadian. I didn't know of a single other Jewish family in the nieghbourhood...except Jerry Schwartz's that is.

There was at least one set of Sikhs though.

 

[King of Kensington]

Are they even WASPier? I mean, it's pretty hard to beat Rosedale for pur laine Upper Canadian. I didn't know of a single other Jewish family in the nieghbourhood...except Jerry Schwartz's that is.

There was at least one set of Sikhs though.

Rosedale: http://www.toronto.ca/demographics/cns_profiles/cns98.htm

Leaside: http://www.toronto.ca/demographics/pdf2/cpa56.pdf

 

[JasonParis]

An interesting take on the press coverage of Naglic's murder trial from Xtra...

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xtra reporter sounds off against Crown prosecutors and mainstream press coverage after Naglic killing

James Dubro, who covered the killing of Janko Naglic and the subsequent trial and acquittal of Ivan Mendez-Romero, lashes out at Crown prosecutors and mainstream press coverage in an op-ed piece posted today on Xtra.ca.

"Average gays on the street are telling me they're angry," writes Dubro. "Naglic's murder is unsolved. His killer is still at large and rumours persist that police may have had a hand in his death, a theory Cohen revisited in his closing arguments in the trial though he noted, "`it is unsupported by evidence.'"

Dubro charges that, as Xtra's reporter, he was denied the same level of access that was extended to mainstream press outlets.

"The day after Mendez-Romero was acquitted he and his lawyers held a press conference," writes Dubro. "Xtra, the only media outlet to cover the trial day in and day out, was not invited.… Being excluded from the press conference wasn't the only slight. Xtra was all but ignored or treated as second-class throughout the trial by homicide officers, the Crown and defence lawyers. My calls went unreturned while mainstream media outlets got photos, interview privileges and inside information."

Dubro saves his most stinging indictment for Toronto Star reporter Rosie DiManno.

"Having worked alongside her I can tell you that DiManno is a real piece of work," writes Dubro. "She is the kind of flamboyant journalist who writes colourful copy but seems less concerned about balance or sensitivity. DiManno's coverage crossed the line into dramatic sensationalism and bordered on homophobia."

Xtra.ca is published by Pink Triangle Press, a not-for-profit organization born out of and committed to the struggle of lesbians and gay men for sexual liberation and human fulfillment.

Read Dubro's piece and all of Xtra's coverage of the Naglic story on the Toronto page of www.Xtra.ca.

 

[urbanvillageboy]

Oh, more than 95% -- I agree with that, too. I just don't think that a series of atomized individuals, all with strong interests but unwilling to act on them in a communal or institutional sense, any kind of community makes. Many of the people in question are very reluctant to do anything openly "Jewish", especially if they have any inkling it might imply to others any connection with those "horrible suburban philistines" à la "people in Thornhill don't know about it". But communities cohere through doing, not just interest.

I have been reluctant to post a reply because you seem determined to stick to your point of view even to the extent of contradicting yourself. in fact, I believe you haven't read anything I've written. This is not a fantasy but a reality that I don't think you're either aware of or part of.

I wrote that this is not a series of atomized individuals and there are several thriving congregations in the downtown area, most of them quite new and indicative of a growing jewish presence. As well, many of them use the JCC as an important resource when they need more space.

You continue to pontificate on this point. I belong to this community. Do you? And are you telling me that there is no community even though I feel I belong to one?

 

[Disparishun]

I have been reluctant to post a reply because you seem determined to stick to your point of view even to the extent of contradicting yourself. in fact, I believe you haven't read anything I've written.

No problem. Your belief is wrong, though.

You continue to pontificate on this point. I belong to this community. Do you? And are you telling me that there is no community even though I feel I belong to one?

Sorry, I thought this was done. I am really not sure this conversation is right for this thread, but you seem a bit upset by what I said, for which I apologise. By all means, you are part of whatever community you feel yourself to be part of.

I wrote that this is not a series of atomized individuals and there are several thriving congregations in the downtown area, most of them quite new and indicative of a growing jewish presence. As well, many of them use the JCC as an important resource when they need more space.

In fairness, no. You wrote about 3 congregations sprawled across downtown (Brunswick, Riverdale, Kensington), of which one holds weekly Shabat services. Renting the JCC twice every September/October is another important local use of the facility, although I am not certain how that is distinguished from all of the community centre and church hall (!) spaces rented for the same purpose throughout the GTA.

Is it possible you are making too much of this? I wasn't trying to argue that there are no persons of Jewish origin or heritage living south of St. Clair -- only that it seemed a bit ridiculous to take umbrage at the idea that, whereas 50 years ago Toronto's urban geography worked quite differently, today Bathurst and Centre in Thornhill is inside a heavily-Jewish neighbourhood in a way that the neighbourhood around the Mosaic is not. I wasn't really taking a position as to whether or not the suburbanization of Toronto's Jewish or other ethnic communities is a good or bad thing. Just raising my eyebrows at the idea that it never happened.

If you want to see that as a controversial statement, you are obviously free to do so, but if you are seeking support for that viewpoint, I would suggest that calling out a synagogue, a couple of prayer groups, and a 50-year-old Jewish bakery whose original owners lived in the area -- in a metro area with hundreds of thriving synagogues and Jewish eateries -- does not support it very strongly. Certainly there are the seeds of urban renewal for a distinctive Jewish presence in an urban neighbourhood in Toronto. There is quite some distance to go before that is more than a phantom reality in my opinion. But, well, that's pretty subjective.

(Yes, I think this needs a separate thread. Maybe in Neighbourhoods? Do those necessarily have to be geographically based, or can they be demographically oriented instead?)