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Chinatown Street Signs

it's hard to believe comments like "after telling a reporter from the Saskatoon StarPhoenix that Jews were a disease and that Hitler was trying to "clean up the world" when he "fried six million of those guys" is not a racist remark. I'm sure he actually meant he loves jews with a passion that he wants them dead.

I'm not quite sure if I understood this correctly. "Bottom line: Canada is primarily a franco/anglo-heritage nation with a tolerant and diverse multicultural population." Do you mean Canada is tolerant of people speaking foreign languages? If so, that sounds condescending.

Anyhow, my bottom line is, Canada embraces multiculturalism that's why many people immigrant here. They want to build a future here. But if it means having to give up their own heritage (only speaking English or French), then I doubt people would want to be here.
 
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"Look here, you, everybody else is quiet and peaceable, and you're all the time a-kicking up a row!" The editorial that accompanied the cartoon asserted: "the raw Irishman in America is a nuisance, his son a curse. They never assimilate; the second generation simply shows an intensification of all the bad qualities of the first. . . .They are a burden and a misery to this country." From the 1880s.

Clearly, the Irish would NEVER be able to integrate into American society!!!

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I have no idea why people get so worked up about these things. The older immigrants will have trouble integrating and will seek the comfort of their language and culture. The second generation will grow in the new country's culture and fit right in, but still cherish many of their parents' traditions and practices. By the third or fourth generation, no serious ties to the old country remain.

Such is how it is, how it has always been, and how it will always be. Making that first generation welcome and treating them with respect will help ensure a peaceful society for everyone and only help with integration in the long run by discouraging distrust and therefore isolation.
 
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They're not asserting their Canadian-ness per se, they're asserting that some Canadians are more Canadian than others - based on language alone.

Nonsense! Celebrating a nation's identity, heritage and history is not being exclusionary. All are invited to celebrate, just as all are invited to come and live here.


If that's how you want to take it, be my guest. I'll go one further and suggest that Fort York be destroyed because it is a relic of English rule. As is St. James Cathedral. I suggest each be replaced by a museum of tolerance.

Well fair enough, of course you are free to feel the way you do, but don't imply that people are racist or nationalistic if they don't agree that we should be destroying the history and built form of the nation. Should we be destroying history books and national symbols too? Is Parliament a relic of English rule? Representational government? Are relics of French rule also a no-go?

And why do you feel the need for a museum of tolerance? Canada is a living and thriving place of tolerance, welcoming to all who choose to come here and live by our rules. There are rules, however, and just as Canadians have to be tolerant to each other multiculturalism does not imply that Canadians do not have to be tolerant of the nation's laws, traditions, history, heritage and identity. They do. That said, what a shame it must be to feel so disenfranchised from a nation that is essentially so welcoming and tolerant. What a shame that you would not want to preserve or visit Fort York and choose to view it as a bastion that withstood American manifest destiny and allowed a nation to emerge and evolve into a place with a value system and ethos of tolerance that would provide home to many around the world? It's all how you choose to look at things I suppose...

Anyhow, my bottom line is, Canada embraces multiculturalism that's why many people immigrant here. They want to build a future here. But if it means having to give up their own heritage (only speaking English or French), then I doubt people would want to be here.

What sign you choose to put on your business or what language you choose to speak there is your decision. What you celebrate or how you identify in your own home or in your community is also up to you, and of course we all take pride in our backgrounds and families, and take interest in those of others. No question, and I can't believe that this even has to be spelled out. What I also can't believe is that some here would then believe that those freedoms somehow preclude the existance and legitimacy of a common Canadian identity that we all belong to, that the acknowledgement or celebration of this is somehow intolerant and exlusionary!
 
Nonsense! Celebrating a nation's identity, heritage and history is not being exclusionary. All are invited to celebrate, just as all are invited to come and live here.

You aren't celebrating a nation's identity, heritage, or history by removing Chinese from street signs in Chinatown. All you're doing is removing Chinese.

Also, I'm pretty sure ShonTron was being sarcastic :p
 
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Nonsense! Celebrating a nation's identity, heritage and history is not being exclusionary. All are invited to celebrate, just as all are invited to come and live here.

Theowne wasn't being called out for celebrating the nation's identity, heritage and history. He was being called out for doing the opposite.



Well fair enough, of course you are free to feel the way you do, but don't imply that people are racist or nationalistic if they don't agree that we should be destroying the history and built form of the nation. Should we be destroying history books and national symbols too? Is Parliament a relic of English rule? Representational government? Are relics of French rule also a no-go?


And why do you feel the need for a museum of tolerance? Canada is a living and thriving place of tolerance, welcoming to all who choose to come here and live by our rules. There are rules, however, and just as Canadians have to be tolerant to each other multiculturalism does not imply that Canadians do not have to be tolerant of the nation's laws, traditions, history, heritage and identity. They do. That said, what a shame it must be to feel so disenfranchised from a nation that is essentially so welcoming and tolerant. What a shame that you would not want to preserve or visit Fort York and choose to view it as a bastion that withstood American manifest destiny and allowed a nation to emerge and evolve into a place with a value system and ethos of tolerance that would provide home to many around the world? It's all how you choose to look at things I suppose...

I think he was kidding...


What sign you choose to put on your business or what language you choose to speak there is your decision. What you celebrate or how you identify in your own home or in your community is also up to you, and of course we all take pride in our backgrounds and families, and take interest in those of others. No question, and I can't believe that this even has to be spelled out. What I also can't believe is that some here would then believe that those freedoms somehow preclude the existance and legitimacy of a common Canadian identity that we all belong to, that the acknowledgement or celebration of this is somehow intolerant and exlusionary!

I don't think anyone believes that at all.
 
Okay, please pardon my incredulity my humour/sarcasm detector was on the fritz.
 
Anyhow, my bottom line is, Canada embraces multiculturalism that's why many people immigrant here. They want to build a future here. But if it means having to give up their own heritage (only speaking English or French), then I doubt people would want to be here.

I agree completely.

However, we have to remember that although multilingualism and immigration are deeply connected, the former is not exclusively due to the latter. There are many Aboriginal communities where neither English or French or spoken. Look at Nunavut where Inuktitut is the most commonly spoken language and is one of the official languages. The Northwest Territories recognizes 11 official languages, 9 of which are Aboriginal. In Ontario, there are many communities where languages like Cree are used everyday yet it has no official status here.

In 1890, Parliament debated whether or not to elevate Gaelic to an official language in addition to English and French. It was the third most spoken language, spoken by many MPs and Senators, and was the mother tongue of a plurality of Fathers of Confederation. Unfortunately the bill was defeated and the language is nearing extinction in Canada.

The point I'm trying to make here is that to see that our country's heritage is exclusively in English and French is misleading. According to the 2006 census, over a quarter of a million people in Ontario had no knowledge of either English or French while 1.8 million used another language at home. To say that these people have no claim to a Canadian identity, or to deny them their place in our country's history, is narrow-minded and elitist.

In many parts of our country, other non-Aboriginal languages were spoken long before either English or French. Whether it's Scottish Gaelic in Cape Breton, Irish in parts of Newfoundland, Ukrainian out West, etc., all have a claim to being Canadian languages. In fact, they were spoken here for so long that distinctly Canadian dialects emerged in all three languages. It is unfortunate that over time these languages (amongst many others) were discouraged and are no longer in widespread use. Language debates in this country have all too often fallen back to English vs. French while equally legitimate language communities have been marginalized. I think Canada could've been a much more interesting place if we recognized our linguistic heritage and encouraged multilingualism outside of just English and French.

I grew up in a generation where a good chunk if not most of my friends where either first or second generation immigrants who could speak two or more languages fluently. I was always a little disappointed that my family never passed down our languages. Some people I know are raising their third or fourth generation Canadian children with a second language, while others plan to. I see this as a good thing that can only enhance our already rich culture, and something that should be reflected in street signs, etc.

We should not equate the official languages of Canada with Canadian languages. The first is a rather limited group of languages used in law, while the latter is a wide range of languages used in everyday life by diverse groups of Canadians. The first is what is officially used by Canadian government, the second is what is used broadly in Canadian society. I don't think we should limit Canadian-ness to the former group as it marginalizes a good chunk of our fellow citizens who equally contribute to our country.

Canada is a multilingual country with a bilingual government, not a bilingual country with some fringe immigrant groups not assimilating properly.
 
There are many Aboriginal communities where neither English or French or spoken. Look at Nunavut where Inuktitut is the most commonly spoken language and is one of the official languages. The Northwest Territories recognizes 11 official languages, 9 of which are Aboriginal. In Ontario, there are many communities where languages like Cree are used everyday yet it has no official status here.

I agree with you in that when we talk about 'founding' nations we should be including the aboriginal communities with the French and the English. The issue linguistically, however, is that very few of the aboriginal languages/cultures are written, and that they are so numerous that standardization...therefore effective and efficient communication....becomes problematic. You also have to wonder whether promoting the use of aboriginal languages, officially speaking at least, does more harm to those communities than good. The reality is that they do have to interact with the rest of the nation and the modern world in general. Culturally speaking of course there would be great interest in documenting and preserving a knowledge of those languages.


In 1890, Parliament debated whether or not to elevate Gaelic to an official language in addition to English and French. It was the third most spoken language, spoken by many MPs and Senators, and was the mother tongue of a plurality of Fathers of Confederation. Unfortunately the bill was defeated and the language is nearing extinction in Canada.

Unfortunately or fortunately? The issues surrounding the gaelic language group are in some ways very similar to those surrounding the aboriginal language group. These languages have very little real status because their usage makes very little practical sense even in the UK and Northwest France where they originate culturally.

The point I'm trying to make here is that to see that our country's heritage is exclusively in English and French is misleading. According to the 2006 census, over a quarter of a million people in Ontario had no knowledge of either English or French while 1.8 million used another language at home. To say that these people have no claim to a Canadian identity, or to deny them their place in our country's history, is narrow-minded and elitist.

Nobody's being 'elitist' about these things. Again, you have to make a distinction between what is used officially, the nation's lingua franca and the reality of what is on the ground, so to speak. Most nations/communities function linguistically in this way so as to encourage unity and effective communication (remember the Tower of Babel?) Canada is fairly unique in actually encouraging and promoting two languages, never mind your suggestion we should be encouraging more, and we have to acknowledge that there are substantial divides in national unity that arise from this.


In many parts of our country, other non-Aboriginal languages were spoken long before either English or French. Whether it's Scottish Gaelic in Cape Breton, Irish in parts of Newfoundland, Ukrainian out West, etc., all have a claim to being Canadian languages.

No, in fact they don't. With languages as with cultures etc. it's sort of a bit like 'survival of the fittest', and this is not unique to Canada. In France for example there are many regional languages and cultures (catalan, provencal, breton, occitan to name just a few), but not of them are officially recognized or encouraged by the government. As De Gaulle once remarked it is nigh on impossible to effectively govern a nation that has more than '500' cheeses. Well it is probably even more difficult to do so with many different languages. 'Fench' was the regional language spoken around Paris and the Ile de France which politically over time came to dominate the other regions and become the central language of the entire nation. In Canada the English language would likely have eventually killed off the French tongue if it weren't for the historical reality of the American Revolution that put into place some official protections for French at an early stage before English assimilation could set in. So, all in all, I think it is wrong to bring value judgements of 'elitism' or 'narrow-mindedness' to these things.

I grew up in a generation where a good chunk if not most of my friends where either first or second generation immigrants who could speak two or more languages fluently. I was always a little disappointed that my family never passed down our languages. Some people I know are raising their third or fourth generation Canadian children with a second language, while others plan to. I see this as a good thing that can only enhance our already rich culture, and something that should be reflected in street signs, etc.

Those are very good things indeed and we should always be encouraged to learn different languages and understand different cultures. I disagree with you, however, that all languages are equal and that we should be enshrining linguistic rights for all in our constitution (does anybody practise the 'clicking language' here?). That is not the role of our central federal or provincial governments and I just don't think that it serves anybody if we end up eroding the unity of a central Canadian identity/language base, risking the further balkanization of an already large and unwieldy federal confederation. Again, these are not value judgements. Canada is of course a diverse place, and this diversity is another core piece of our identity but this diversity should be encouraged more locally in our communities and families than at the level of our provincial and federal governments, imo.
 
The language thing is totally class-based and totally a 416 thing. You don't see Chinese street signs in the 905 Chinese communities. Why? Because the 905 communities are mostly middle/upper middle income areas, where people own homes, while this isn't the case in Chinatown. They tried to gentrify Chinatown some 20 years ago when they opened the Mandarin Club (a city/social club which served Chinese food), but then the club moved up to the suburbs (so they could have golf and tennis, to my understanding). I recall going to dinner there and having some homeless guy try to get into the club's elevator. It was nine or ten at the time and was really freaked out.
 
Personally I think the Chinese signs give the area character. Whether we're talking about street signs or the signs on a Royal Bank or a nursing home. I don't see how this is suddenly offensive. A lot of ado about nothing.
 
I prefer the tried and true way to deal with the signs that aren't in English. Ignoring them. I can read the English, and I don't care about the Chinese characters. If it helps somebody that doesn't speak English then it's great. I just don't think they should rely on them to get around.

Don't new immigrants have to be able to read and write English or French anyways to get into Canada?
 
For those who are riled up about Chinese-language signage in Chinatown, go check out the Western Union money transfer ad on the TTC shelter on Dundas just outside Dragon Centre (Spadina and Dundas... the same ad is also displayed on a bus shelter outside Pacific Mall).

The ad is entirely covered in simplified Chinese script and Chinese fireworks. The only English on that ad is a Western Union logo.
 
For those who are riled up about Chinese-language signage in Chinatown, go check out the Western Union money transfer ad on the TTC shelter on Dundas just outside Dragon Centre (Spadina and Dundas... the same ad is also displayed on a bus shelter outside Pacific Mall).

The ad is entirely covered in simplified Chinese script and Chinese fireworks. The only English on that ad is a Western Union logo.

haha... well, nothing wrong with that. You can bet businesses want to communicate with their potential customers as directly as possible. There is money to be made, after all. :)
 
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"Look here, you, everybody else is quiet and peaceable, and you're all the time a-kicking up a row!" The editorial that accompanied the cartoon asserted: "the raw Irishman in America is a nuisance, his son a curse. They never assimilate; the second generation simply shows an intensification of all the bad qualities of the first. . . .They are a burden and a misery to this country." From the 1880s.

Clearly, the Irish would NEVER be able to integrate into American society!!!


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thank goodness for that....

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