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Charter must be changed, Quebec panel told

there's that good old slippery slope again, putting logic in a wheelchair.

:shrug:

Didn't invent the concept. Just explaining how I understand this.

I totally agree with Vicente. Hérouxville's code of conduct may be a clumsy and naive overreactive piece of crap, what it comes down to is nevertheless just common sense.
 
I am sorry to hear that you experienced racism in rural Quebec, but the argument against accomodating religious extremists can be made from a non-racist perspective.

Is this about accomodating religious extremism, or is it about a certain group of self-appointed individuals imposing their values on others? Besides, what's so extreme about letting others observe religious holidays? If that's extremism, I am afraid we have been practicing a particular form of it for quite awhie now.

Us Canadians need to stand up for our Western culture and values and not be prostitutes to "cultural diversity".

What is "western culture", exactly? Which part of it should we be standing up to? Belief in democracy? (hardly the sole province of "western culture", and by no means practiced by the entirety of it) Getting a driver's license at 16? Watching Britney/Christina et al. acting like prostitutes on TV?

If they are truly honest at Herouxville, they wouldn't have hid behind the whole secularity argument; they should have come out and said that we prefer our world to be unchanging and exactly the way it was x hundred years ago. Today it is religious minorities, tomorrow it's going to be ethnic minorities, the day after it's sexual orientation. We'd like the Charter their to protect our rights, but as to the rights of others, we'd love to get our hands into it.

But of course, that's a violation of the Charter of Rights, non? Before we get too saintly, it's equally important to keep in mind that respect goes both ways, and having the Charter of Rights does not imply one can exercise these rights on the basis of ill-intent.

AoD
 
If you choose to perform perverse cultural traditions that are against the values of Canadians, then we will not accomodate you.
However, physical disabilities are different. People can take off the veil, people in wheelchairs can't just get up and walk.

and that's regardless if you use peter popoff's miracle spring water and sprinkle dead sea salt on the cheques you send him to pay off god.
 
It was in small-town Quebec that, for the first and only time in my life, that I have ever been refused service at a restaurant just because of my ethnicity. Well, not exactly refused. they just simply ignored me and did not acknowledge my existence.

I suppose it beyond "reasonable accomodation" for a restaurant to serve SOMEONE WHO IS CANADIAN-BORN some food and drink.

:shrug:

Didn't invent the concept. Just explaining how I understand this.

I totally agree with Vicente. Hérouxville's code of conduct may be a clumsy and naive overreactive piece of crap, what it comes down to is nevertheless just common sense.

So basically immigrants have no common sense?

How is asking for a limit to religious accomodations being racist?

I am sorry to hear that you experienced racism in rural Quebec, but the argument against accomodating religious extremists can be made from a non-racist perspective.

If you choose to perform perverse cultural traditions that are against the values of Canadians, then we will not accomodate you.

Us Canadians need to stand up for our Western culture and values and not be prostitutes to "cultural diversity".

However, physical disabilities are different. People can take off the veil, people in wheelchairs can't just get up and walk.

So people women who wear a veil are extremists? Wearing a veil is a "perverse cultural tradition?"

Religion is not the main issue here. Even though I am an atheist who hates religion, I think women should be able to wear whatever the hell they want to wear, and that includes a veil.

Also, your use of the word "prostitutes" sound dangerously close to being misogynist.

I am a Canadian, I was born in Canada, but "Western culture" has no innate value to me, and that term is offensive to me. You are saying that Polish, Italian, Greek, etc. cultural traditions and values are okay but Persian, Indian, Chinese, etc. isn't?
 
So basically immigrants have no common sense?

What the hell ? You are kidding, right ?

I was saying that Hérouxville's code of conduct has many flaws, but that their intent isn't bad. If you read it, you'll notice that it is pretty inoffensive and naive. It's just good olde common sense, too such an extent, in fact, that it is laughable.

Now, what is the link with immigrant common sense ?

I am a Canadian, I was born in Canada, but "Western culture" has no innate value to me, and that term is offensive to me. You are saying that Polish, Italian, Greek, etc. cultural traditions and values are okay but Persian, Indian, Chinese, etc. isn't?

How is it so offensive ? Western culture is just a set of common roots that european nations and nations whose culture traces back to Europe share. You know, greco-roman heritage, christian values (and note that I am not talking about christian beliefs), humanism, the copernician revolution and the values inherited from the Renaissance ? And you know what ? I have big news : you can be western without being anti-others.
 
It was in small-town Quebec that, for the first and only time in my life, that I have ever been refused service at a restaurant just because of my ethnicity. Well, not exactly refused. they just simply ignored me and did not acknowledge my existence.

I suppose it beyond "reasonable accomodation" for a restaurant to serve SOMEONE WHO IS CANADIAN-BORN some food and drink.


what's that movie where martin lawrence and eddie murphy walk into a diner and ask for some pie? that's what just popped into my head as i read that.

that's messed up.
 
Yeah, it is wrong. Do you remember the name of the town ?
 
How is it so offensive ? Western culture is just a set of common roots that european nations and nations whose culture traces back to Europe share. You know, greco-roman heritage, christian values (and note that I am not talking about christian beliefs), humanism, the copernician revolution and the values inherited from the Renaissance ? And you know what ? I have big news : you can be western without being anti-others.

There are plenty of those who are of "western hertiage" (i.e. white) who doesn't share these "western cultural values". How should one deal with those? Are they to be treated differently by the merit of their own skin?

AoD
 
To some I degree I can see both sides here... I would like to do away with all religions, but this document is clearly being protectionist towards Christianity. The zenophobia here is only thinly disguised. I dont buy the argument for protecting western culture either. As stated above western culture has devolved into trash entertainment and appealing to our most base impulses. In any case for our world to progess, we need to abandon many ways of the past, nationalism included.

The fact is we are all one on an ever shrinking planet. Even though I enjoy diversity of cultures our increasing mobility and immigration will continue to result in mixed marriages... within another few hundred years we may all be a similar shade of light brown. At that point hopefully "common sense" will have sunk in and there will no longer be a need to maintain old traditions that differentiate us. Unlikely though as we are humans after all, very skilled at identifying and exploiting difference.

Personally I dont feel threatened by individuals in my community who are of religious persuassion (I am atheist) or of differing ethnic groups etc. However I am sympathetic to some of the approaches taken by France to ban all religious symbols in public... again this is contentious because the Notre Dame Cathedral is highly visible. Its a tough issue, but in the end I must side against intolerance, its a very unhealthy belief.
 
There are plenty of those who are of "western hertiage" (i.e. white) who doesn't share these "western cultural values". How should one deal with those? Are they to be treated differently by the merit of their own skin?

What about people who aren't white and identify themselves as western ? You don't have to be white, for example, to read, dig, and adopt stoician philosophy. Yet, if you do, you are most likely contaminated by the evil spirit of western culture. ;)
 
Hérouxville's intolerance, if it were to spread, would lead Canada to the very problem that the town fears - the ghetto-like suburbs and riots of France. Canada may never change Hérouxville, but Hérouxville must not be permitted to change Canada.

Ah, but you know, in a realm like Urban Toronto, we're prone to hailing Paris as an urban ideal. And to maintain an urbanism that great is worth the risk of ghetto-like suburbs and riots. Right?;)
 
What the hell ? You are kidding, right ?

I was saying that Hérouxville's code of conduct has many flaws, but that their intent isn't bad. If you read it, you'll notice that it is pretty inoffensive and naive. It's just good olde common sense, too such an extent, in fact, that it is laughable.

Now, what is the link with immigrant common sense ?

If it is common sense why the hell do you need to tell people? You think immigrants don't know common sense?

How is it so offensive ? Western culture is just a set of common roots that european nations and nations whose culture traces back to Europe share. You know, greco-roman heritage, christian values (and note that I am not talking about christian beliefs), humanism, the copernician revolution and the values inherited from the Renaissance ? And you know what ? I have big news : you can be western without being anti-others.

Yes but why should European culture considered more important than other cultures? That is what is offensive, this idea that white culture is somehow better or more important than non-white culture. Europeans are not even the first people to come to the Americas.
 
f it is common sense why the hell do you need to tell people? You think immigrants don't know common sense?

Oh I understand what you meant now. Yes, I totally agree. That's probably why Hérouxville's move is so ridiculous.

Yes but why should European culture considered more important than other cultures? That is what is offensive, this idea that white culture is somehow better or more important than non-white culture. Europeans are not even the first people to come to the Americas.

European culture is not, objectively speaking, more important than any other culture. But it is probably subjectively more important to people of European descent, like myself, by the simple fact that it is fundamental to us. It is the founding culture of our identity and it is the source of most of our values, traditions and ways of thinking. If you say "poetry", I'll think of Baudelaire, Raimbaud and Byron before I think of Omar Khayyam. It doesn't mean that Khayyam is a lesser poet. In matters of philosophy, Aristotle and Kant are the philosophers to which I identify myself spontaneously. That fact, though, is not in contradiction with the admiration I have for the political philosophy professed by Confucius.

You are obviously Western yourself in the way you think. The kind of relativism that you seem to defend has its roots in the western world. And I really don't see anything offensive in that fact.
 
Yes but why should European culture considered more important than other cultures? That is what is offensive, this idea that white culture is somehow better or more important than non-white culture. Europeans are not even the first people to come to the Americas.

Culture is a set of ideas, and can therefore be practiced by everyone if racism did not exist.

There is no such thing as "white culture", a culture does not belong to any race. When a white man uses chopsticks, is he defying his nature? If an "Asian" woman speaks English better than any Asian language, has she "lost her culture"? When a "Black" person does "Native American" art, are they less qualified than a person of "Native American" race just because they didn't choose the right parents? No, people have the freewill to choose what culture (ideas) they adopt.

What IS racist is assuming that certain countries, cultures, and traditions belong to certain races. Most of south-Saharan Africa is based on cultures centered around subsistence-farming. Do you multiculturalists consider it racist to industrialize their countries and change their millenia-old ways of life?

I am non-White too and I do not see a contradiction when I say that North America is my only homeland and American culture my only culture. If you come to my country, be prepared for your children to become Canadians. Ethnicity stops at the border. If you identify with and love the people and/or culture of China, India, Russia, France, etc. more than that of Canada, then you are not Canadian.

DaimonAugustus said:
You are obviously Western yourself in the way you think. The kind of relativism that you seem to defend has its roots in the western world. And I really don't see anything offensive in that fact.

Shh! Don't tell multiculturalists that! They will think that you are accusing them of being "white-washed" self-hating minorities! Brown people are supposed to approach philosophy in a brown way, White people are supposed to think in a White way, etc, and anyone who doesn't follow the thinking pattern assigned to their race obviously has identity issues (bananas (yellow on the outside, white on the inside), eggs (white outside, yellow inside), oreos (black outside, white inside)).

(that was sarcasm in case anyone didn't notice)

I bet that a lot of people think that your ideas of Quebec for the Quebeckers is racist because they are assuming that Quebecois culture is reserved for White people, and that the only way to not be racist is to not have a national culture.
 

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