Canada to cut back on visas and immigration permits to extended family

[Admiral Beez]

Don't assume immigrants want to bring their relatives to Canada simply to raise their kids when you lack the facts.

I don't give a fig why they want their relatives to come to Canada, maybe it's to raise their kids, maybe it's because they miss them, the reason doesn't matter, IMO. What does matter is that every immigrant to Canada should have to apply like everyone else - there should be no family reunification class at all beyond your own children and spouse. Immigration is not about compassion, or hugs and kisses, it's about investing in the future of Canada, if you can make an economic case for bringing the senior family members to Canada then put it on the table. A friend of mine's elderly in-laws just moved to Canada from mainland China to be with their granddaughter, and they applied as regular immigrants, and brought with them a ton of cash to invest in Canadian businesses - now that's a good case of old folks benefiting Canada.

 

[ss.44]

ss.44--damn right I tell my co-workers to their face that they're being intolerant, racist etc. But I'm realistic in that I realize we're all racist to some degree, and many of these newbies have only been exposed to one cultural background most of their lives--similar perhaps to small town folks in Ontario being only exposed to their own mostly white culture.

When you live and work amongst folks mostly from your own background--my place is mainly Brampton/SA--you get comfortable and may forget there's live beyond the SA community.... It truly reminds me of being exposed to Conservative Mennonites in Waterloo/Perth Co. region as a child--the "English" vs "us" mentality. So yes, I'm saying many new immigrants are just as intolerant and racist as old school Canadians.

By Canadian, I mean those b&b in Canada, particularly 3rd generation and beyond, as realistically it takes 2-3 generations to become comfortable with Canada being "home." I'm half American, so I should know.... (If you've got a dual passport, chances are great you're not fully comfortable with your new "home.")


Back to the topic at hand--old folks should'nt be allowed en masse to Canada, simple as that. There's always exceptions, but there should be a limit--under 10k/year?

Here's a British example of what happens when you choose not to embrace your new country's values: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-judge-learning-English-20-years-Britain.html

The link you posted is ridiculous and just shows how prevalent racism and ignorance still is in Britain. The fact that this man required an interpretor has absolutely nothing to do with the crime he committed. Furthermore, it just goes to show that the judge is using deportation as punishment for reasons other than the crime committed. I wonder how many Brits knew how to speak "Hindi" and "Punjabi" when they decided they would "colonize" India, only to steal from that country, including the diamond stolen from India that the Queen wears on her Crown.

 

[Admiral Beez]

After re-reading my posts above I feel I'm becoming far too argumentative and close minded in my old age... well I AM going to be 40 next month. So, I'll take a new tack and seek contrary ideas and consensus. Assuming on that compassionate grounds and in the pursuit of maintaining competitiveness in attracting the top "quality" immigrants Canada continues to have an extended family (specifically senior citizens) immigration class, what level should be permitted? It appears to be about 10,000 - 15,000 per year currently, which is about 5% of the total immigration to Canada annually. Is this too low, or too high? You can't reasonably expect the sponsoring family to be fully responsible for the lifetime medical costs of the senior immigrant family members, as this could be nothing or hundreds of thousands $$. So, assuming we're not turning off the tap, how many should we accept annually?

 

[Peepers]

You can't reasonably expect the sponsoring family to be fully responsible for the lifetime medical costs of the senior immigrant family members, as this could be nothing or hundreds of thousands $$. So, assuming we're not turning off the tap, how many should we accept annually?

You are correct in stating that the medical lifetime costs for senior immigrant family members could be in the hundreds of thousands $ (although rarely would the costs be nothing). If as you say we cannot expect the sponsoring family member to be fully responsible for these costs why should the rest of be on the hook for these medical bills? The cost to Canadians is not just in higher taxes but in reduced quality of healthcare as governments ration healthcare as a means to deal with this massive shortfall in funding. What this means is that Canadians will not get the care that they need when they need it. I have no doubt that many lives have been and will be lost as a result. Another factor to consider is that government cut-backs which restrict how many patients a Doctor can see thereby limiting the Doctors earning potential only accelerates the exodus of our very best Doctors to the U.S. It is a vicious cycle.

Perhaps an argument could be made that the benefit that immigrants bring offsets the costs of providing for their unproductive parents but I doubt it. Without actual data it is hard to make such a determination. We need to know how many dependents are currently in Canada and receiving free healthcare? What does this cost us? How many of these dependents are collecting welfare & ODSP because their children defaulted on their obligations? How many are collecting old age security? We just don't have this information. What we do know is that Ontario is $20 Billion dollar in debt. We have 3 X the debt of California with 1/3 the population (and California has been declared all but bankrupt). The biggest single budget item in Ontario is Healthcare. We can no longer afford to ignore this problem!

So in answer to your question how many elderly dependents should we allow in annually I would say that ALL of them are free to come in as long as their sponsors cover ALL of their expenses INCLUDING medical insurance costs. As soon as their children renege on these obligations I would send mom & dad packing back to the home country.

 

[GenerationW]

^I've learned that many new Canadians are quite racist and old fashioned and intolerant. They certainly aren't in love with English or French Canada.

By zero interest in Canada, I mean they could care less about Canadian politics, TV, architecture, culture, values etc and want to import their own values on b&b Canadians--keep dreaming... They just focus on their families, making certain their single sisters etc don't marry us Canadians etc.

I'm not worried -- that'll change with time. Along with many others, my parents came over in the post-war period from villages, with no knowledge of English, and with absolutely no experience in city life or 9-5 jobs, yet they ended up adapting just fine. And there was an earlier wave who came over from the same area during the World War One era, an age which was a lot more hostile to urban immigrants than what my parents faced. Somehow they also managed to fit in.

I also find it quite hilarious how ignorant they are re: the ROC, hell even the world beyond the GTA! How can you live without seeing the rural countryside? Fresh fruit just isn't found in "my country."

Then it must induce sidesplitting belly-laughs that there are non-immigrant Torontonians who are hostile to the ROC, or anything north of (take your pick) Eglinton/St. Clair/Bloor. A few of them are even on this forum!

But then, I can understand their point of view--if I moved to India, I'd insist on everything being Canadian. Would be interesting to see how the locals would react to that.

I'm sure they'd riot in the streets and nominate you to replace their Mubarak.

 

[LAz]

People don't move to reunite and be Canadians. They move to reunite and enrich themselves. It's nothing about being or feeling Canadian, in my opinion.

Back on topic, Australia doesn't permit any extended family reunification, and they seem to have a successful immigration system. I'm all for visitors visas so that the children can meet their cousins, grandparents etc., but if they want to emigrate to Canada they must apply like everyone else.

Australia also had a white-australian immigration act. The natives were put on the level with the koalas, and only whites were allowed to move there.
Not sure if it is politically correct to use them as an example.

 

[Admiral Beez]

People don't move to reunite and be Canadians. They move to reunite and enrich themselves. It's nothing about being or feeling Canadian, in my opinion.

People have always acted in their own self interest, that immigration is also driven by self interest shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. To many I would think becoming a Canadian is priority one, since they want the security of a Canadian passport, healthcare, public safety and education opportunities for their kids. All self interest of course, why else would anyone do it.

Australia also had a white-australian immigration act. The natives were put on the level with the koalas, and only whites were allowed to move there. Not sure if it is politically correct to use them as an example.

Who cares about being politically correct - does anyone even still use that term? The White Australia policies were abolished in the early 1970s. We've all got nasty bits of history, in Canada for instance, before the Immigration Act of 1976 it was very difficult for non-Europeans to immigrate.

The current immigration policies of Australia are very open to all cultures - there are huge Asian populations in Oz now, for example. Australia's current immigration system is well regarded for succesfully integrating its immigrants from all over the world, from all backgrounds, accomplished mostly through very strict English-proficiency requirements and the complete lack of family reunification policies.

 

[avenirv]

you see, i'll be bad and ask: and where is the british empire ?
on the other hand, the chinese built an empire too and it still exists. the russians built an empire and still exists.
so what model is better ?

 

[avenirv]

what is the proportion of immigrant descend MDs vs the total number of MDs ? you'll be surprised.

 

[Admiral Beez]

I expect that nearly 100% of the MDs in Canada are either immigrants themselves or children, grandchildren or great grandchildren of immigrants. It's a country built by immigrants, so there should be no surprise that our MD population comes from the descendants of immigrants.

 

[Admiral Beez]

you see, i'll be bad and ask: and where is the british empire ?
on the other hand, the chinese built an empire too and it still exists. the russians built an empire and still exists.
so what model is better ?

What is the point of this question? Empires come and go. And please, if you're going to ask pointless questions, at least give us the courtesy of correct grammar. Who the hell starts a sentence with "you see, i'll"?

возвратитесь к школе перед тратой нашего времени.

 

[ss.44]

You are correct in stating that the medical lifetime costs for senior immigrant family members could be in the hundreds of thousands $ (although rarely would the costs be nothing). If as you say we cannot expect the sponsoring family member to be fully responsible for these costs why should the rest of be on the hook for these medical bills? The cost to Canadians is not just in higher taxes but in reduced quality of healthcare as governments ration healthcare as a means to deal with this massive shortfall in funding. What this means is that Canadians will not get the care that they need when they need it. I have no doubt that many lives have been and will be lost as a result. Another factor to consider is that government cut-backs which restrict how many patients a Doctor can see thereby limiting the Doctors earning potential only accelerates the exodus of our very best Doctors to the U.S. It is a vicious cycle.

Realistically, “senior immigrant family members” are not the ones who are taxing on Canada’s healthcare system. There are an alarming number of non-immigrants who don’t value education the way immigrants do, and a number of non-immigrants who because of their lack of value towards education, or higher learning, don’t necessarily pursue higher education, and sometimes don’t even finish high school. As a result, some of these people don’t add the value to Canada’s economy that you seem to blame “senior immigrant family members” of doing. So perhaps I should follow your logic, or lack thereof, and ask the question, “why should I as an educated, fully employed, tax-paying Canadian be on the hook for their medical bills?”

Ignorant much?

 

[spider]

Logic?

Realistically, “senior immigrant family members” are not the ones who are taxing on Canada’s healthcare system. There are an alarming number of non-immigrants who don’t value education the way immigrants do, and a number of non-immigrants who because of their lack of value towards education, or higher learning, don’t necessarily pursue higher education, and sometimes don’t even finish high school. As a result, some of these people don’t add the value to Canada’s economy that you seem to blame “senior immigrant family members” of doing. So perhaps I should follow your logic, or lack thereof, and ask the question, “why should I as an educated, fully employed, tax-paying Canadian be on the hook for their medical bills?”

Ignorant much?

If every "non-immigrant" in Canada was a PHD or Doctor of something or other there would be no more money available for Health Care it would simply be distributed differently. What was the cost to the taxpayer of the education you are so proud of? If you lost your job on Monday and were diagnosed with Cancer on Tuesday should we just roll you into the ditch?

 

[avenirv]

nice spin...

 

[avenirv]

"We wouldn't have built an empire if we'd worried about our 'nans back home"

sorry, somebody else brought the "empire" thing.