Canada got it right on Cuba!

[kEiThZ]

I am not trying pressure tactics here. I would not want jade_lee or any other poster banned but I would note that many other members seem to have been booted for a lot less. I am, however, sincerely disappointed at how much this portion of UT has devolved. I just find that sad....that we really can't have any sort of serious discussion without it being susceptible to a jade_lee classic.

ps. If you accept that this thread is bait though, why not close it down?

 

[jade_lee]

Cuba is a relevant political topic.
The criminal CIA involvement in the Cubian crisis is well known.
How is this thread bait?

 

[kEiThZ]

Cuba is a relevant political topic.
The criminal CIA involvement in the Cubian crisis is well known.
How is this thread bait?

^My point exactly. Jade_lee does not seem to even understand the provocative nature of his/her behaviour or how to carry on an intelligent debate.

Next up after this post is a series of posts avoiding challenges put forth by various posters followed by suggestions that they are fools who jade_lee does not suffer easily or that their views show that they are not Canadian, et cetera, et cetera.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Keithz:

I am not trying pressure tactics here. I would not want jade_lee or any other poster banned but I would note that many other members seem to have been booted for a lot less. I am, however, sincerely disappointed at how much this portion of UT has devolved. I just find that sad....that we really can't have any sort of serious discussion without it being susceptible to a jade_lee classic.

No offense, but between this, the messages and the poll, it doesn't take a genius to figure out your intent. Other members are booted for their blatant displays of forum rule violations - they weren't booted for expressing a certain viewpoint per se - and those decisions are made collectively.

ps. If you accept that this thread is bait though, why not close it down?

Because it is also an expression of political views that does not contradict with forum rules? I don't have to agree with it, or second guess the intent of the posting unless it's a systematic spamming of the forum. There wasn't slander or name-calling on here that would warrant action.

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Jade_lee does not seem to even understand the provocative nature of his/her behaviour or how to carry on an intelligent debate

Review the threads you've started, particularly in this section of the forum - some of them are hardly "unprovocative" - should I prevent you from participating on the forum on that basis?

If someone is incapable of debating intelligently - why debate with them?

AoD

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

And jade_lee - do NOT interpret my response as support for your behaviour on UT. Without a doubt Keithz is correct in saying that you have brought down the level of discourse on the forum by stonewalling in debates.

AoD

 

[cacruden]

Cuba is a relevant political topic.
The criminal CIA involvement in the Cubian crisis is well known.
How is this thread bait?

Both left and right (large portions) are hypocritical when it comes to discussions on embargo - left (embargo support for South Africa; but not Cuba), right (embargo support for Cuba, but not South Africa). I am not a big fan on embargoes but I do believe each country has to right to trade or not trade with other countries of their choosing.

If they do drop the embargo, I hope they at least get something for it (maybe having remittances not in large part confiscated by the state of Cuba).

As far as the CIA, they have had their problems in the last 30+ years, but they are a necessary evil to protect the United States interests (no different than MI6).

 

[kEiThZ]

Although, I am glad that Canada has been engaging with Cuba (To jaw-jaw is better than to war-war after all), I wish Canadians took some time to at least understand the US position. I suspect Canadians would feel differently if they had an island 90 miles off the coast which chose to harbour forces (and potentially nuclear weapons) of the enemy. That's not to excuse the position of Cuban Americans (and their largely Republican backers) who have advocated sanctions beyond reason. But we should understand that American interests in Cuba are far different than ours and that would of course result in vastly different approaches to relations with Cuba.

 

[digi]

I wish Canadians took some time to at least understand the US position.

That goes both ways. If americans would take the time to try to understand other people, or to learn a little something about the rest of the world, you'd have a good point.

 

[toraerach]

Both left and right (large portions) are hypocritical when it comes to discussions on embargo - left (embargo support for South Africa; but not Cuba), right (embargo support for Cuba, but not South Africa). I am not a big fan on embargoes but I do believe each country has to right to trade or not trade with other countries of their choosing.

If they do drop the embargo, I hope they at least get something for it (maybe having remittances not in large part confiscated by the state of Cuba).

As far as the CIA, they have had their problems in the last 30+ years, but they are a necessary evil to protect the United States interests (no different than MI6).

I agree with you to a degree. One of the things I've always found interesting is how little controversy is attached to our diplomatic and economic relations with countries where homosexuality is punishable by death.

Although, I am glad that Canada has been engaging with Cuba (To jaw-jaw is better than to war-war after all), I wish Canadians took some time to at least understand the US position. I suspect Canadians would feel differently if they had an island 90 miles off the coast which chose to harbour forces (and potentially nuclear weapons) of the enemy. That's not to excuse the position of Cuban Americans (and their largely Republican backers) who have advocated sanctions beyond reason. But we should understand that American interests in Cuba are far different than ours and that would of course result in vastly different approaches to relations with Cuba.

I've always suspected the American embargo was more motivated by the loss of American property during the Cuban Revolution and that initially it was more about exploiting the opinions of the Cuban refugees to further their ideals than the other way round. I mean, the significant Cuban population in the US wouldn't exist if it wasn't for laws that allowed them to migrate somewhat more easily after the Revolution. In a sense, the large Cuban-American population is a result of American policy on Cuba rather than the other way around.

Many Americans and American companies lost a substatial amount of money and property after the Revolution. The government of the United States must have - at some point - realized that it would be hugely hypocrticial of the American government to punish Cuba and nations/companies dealing with Cuba when the US's own founding revolution robbed many of their property (the United Empire Loyalists being chief among these). In fact, the Helms-Burton Act was responded to in Canada with the Godfrey-Miliken Bill - a rather interesting moment in Canadian-American relations regardless of how you feel about it.

The relationship between Cuba and the United States is extremely complicated and goes back far before the revolution ever occured. There's more to this embargo than just Communism vs. Capitalism or a fear of attack. If it was based solely on fear of attack, wouldn't the US have dropped the embargo when the USSR fell apart and that fear disintegrated?

 

[Whoaccio]

Can you really say Canada's policy on Cuba "got it right"? It is still a totalitarian society were being gay is enough to have you liquidated for bourgeoisie wrecking and lives in abject poverty. Maybe we got it less wrong than the US, but that doesn't mean we "got it right." Not by a long shot. It is an incredibly annoying strain of logic where some Maude Barlow esque Canadians just demand that we do slightly better than the US, and then assume we are a moral superpower and such. (Healthcare comes to mind, where nobody talks about us ranking abysmally against Euro societies but all people care is that we beat the US by 2 spots).

As to the CIA, it is sort of hard to assess. The public really only ever hears about its failures but never its successes. If you look at only the negative of an organization over 50 odd years it is bound to look like a failure.

 

[jade_lee]

Can you really say Canada's policy on Cuba "got it right"? It is still a totalitarian society were being gay is enough to have you liquidated for bourgeoisie wrecking and lives in abject poverty. Maybe we got it less wrong than the US, but that doesn't mean we "got it right." Not by a long shot. It is an incredibly annoying strain of logic where some Maude Barlow esque Canadians just demand that we do slightly better than the US, and then assume we are a moral superpower and such. (Healthcare comes to mind, where nobody talks about us ranking abysmally against Euro societies but all people care is that we beat the US by 2 spots).

As to the CIA, it is sort of hard to assess. The public really only ever hears about its failures but never its successes. If you look at only the negative of an organization over 50 odd years it is bound to look like a failure.

In Healthcare France is ranked #1, Canada ranked 3o, USA ranked 37 and Cuba is ranked 39. according to WHO.

Secret police agencies should never really be blindly trusted should they? Lots of damage control with respect to the CIA over the years that's for sure! Give me some significant successes of the CIA will ya? Torture by the CIA is still unraveling.

The anti gay movement in Canada appears to be underground but I assure you it still exists in this country.......re gay marriage debate where gay marriage rights are constitutionally sound but still a hot potato issue with little merit......miss California comes to mind in the states.

 

[kEiThZ]

I've always suspected the American embargo was more motivated by the loss of American property during the Cuban Revolution and that initially it was more about exploiting the opinions of the Cuban refugees to further their ideals than the other way round. I mean, the significant Cuban population in the US wouldn't exist if it wasn't for laws that allowed them to migrate somewhat more easily after the Revolution. In a sense, the large Cuban-American population is a result of American policy on Cuba rather than the other way around.

Many Americans and American companies lost a substantial amount of money and property after the Revolution. The government of the United States must have - at some point - realized that it would be hugely hypocrticial of the American government to punish Cuba and nations/companies dealing with Cuba when the US's own founding revolution robbed many of their property (the United Empire Loyalists being chief among these). In fact, the Helms-Burton Act was responded to in Canada with the Godfrey-Miliken Bill - a rather interesting moment in Canadian-American relations regardless of how you feel about it.

The relationship between Cuba and the United States is extremely complicated and goes back far before the revolution ever occured. There's more to this embargo than just Communism vs. Capitalism or a fear of attack. If it was based solely on fear of attack, wouldn't the US have dropped the embargo when the USSR fell apart and that fear disintegrated?

Fair enough. But this is exactly why its rather smug to say we got it 'right' on Cuba. Canada does not have the same history with Cuba and we have very few interests there. We also had very interests before the revolution. I may not agree with US policies on Cuban-American relations but I do think its quite ignorant and smug to say that we have the moral high ground here because we chose to maintain relations with a dictator after he took power.

The real test should be what would Canada have done if we had the same interests in and history with Cuba?

 

[jade_lee]

What, no Canadian gangsters in Cuba pre revolution?
Canada got it right by not forcing an embargo on the Cubians and had Kennedy lived, perhaps that is where he was going as well according to what Fidel said in the piece I posted. Canada has enjoyed a good relationship with the Cubian people over time and Fidel the dictator or whatever you want to call the man, has always respected Canada.

 

[Brian69]

I have to agree that this issue is not whether Cuba is better than your average dictatorship (it isn't) but the fact that other dictatorships get a pass from America when Cuba doesn't. America has a better relationship with Vietnam nowadays and they lost almost 60,000 soldiers there. Miami and the Cuban-American lobby are tireless in their efforts to keep Cuba isolated regardless how how inconsistent it makes American policy out to be.

But it is also important to remember that, unlike some of America's other pet projects in the region Cuba wasn't such a bad place before the revolution. A lot of people lost everything when Castro came to power and more than a few are still alive and passing on the memories to their children. Rather than just taking down the rich he ended up flattening a rather large middle class down to the economic level of the rest of the nation. So the anger of Cuban expatriates is understandable even though they don't necessarily reflect sound American foreign policy. Whether a relatively small lobby should be allowed to dictate the foreign policy for a nation of 300 million over this issue is another matter.