"Businesses Fleeing to the 905"

[TOinTO]

As a freelance contractor I've been contacted by at least two dozen businesses (design, tech, advertising) over the past year inquiring about potentially hiring me for individual projects, contracts, or full-time work. Almost all of the businesses would have been easily walkable from downtown; another handful were on the subway. Only ONE was outside downtown Toronto, and that was in Oakville.

When I was looking to move back to Toronto in 2006, I was concerned that I might have a hard time finding good work in the city - because of all the gloomy reports of business moving to the 905 in the last 15 years - especially technology companies.

But it was no problem and I've moved through 3 jobs since then (my choice) - all of them downtown.

I'm not trying to counter well documented trends with personal anecdotes. There has been much more job growth in the 905 than in Toronto and the inner suburbs are doing badly. But there is a robust white collar job market downtown.

I think I would move to another city (like New York or back to SF) before I would commute to Markham or Mississauga.

The car is paid for, but needs about $200 a year on average in maintenance.

Yeah, you wait! My car is paid for too. We don't use it for commuting. Last year we had to have the breaks done and one of the struts replaced for about a $1000. Total expenses for the car that year were $4500. This year it was revealed that the coolant leak no one could find had fucked up most of the electronics - $4000 just to fix that mess. Of course, that's what I would pay/year to replace it. I hate owning a car. Once the kids are older, they're going to go through a lot of sneakers!

 

[syn]

His concerns and perspectives on these issues are just as valid - regardless of the perceived negative tone.

It seems like when a different perspective is shared then the 'group-think' mentality here - they are unfairly ostracized.

It isn't his perspective that's the problem - it's his unsubstantiated perspective. "The sky is falling" routine isn't new. His post is littered with faulty reasoning and poor examples, the likes of which have been exposed many times on this forum.

 

[ITcomputer]

I'm sick of people saying that their car only costs a few thousand a year to operate, especially when they live in Toronto.

People, get a calculator and all your auto receipts and you will see. I hope you are sitting down when you do it.

 

[syn]

^Most people I know say their car is a minimum of $400 - $500 a month, which works out to $4800 - $6000 a year minimum.

 

[ITcomputer]

^Most people I know say their car is a minimum of $400 - $500 a month, which works out to $4800 - $6000 a year minimum.

that is much closer to being realistic.

Here is a basic breakdown:

avg econ car new: 48 to 60 month term

lease or finance: $300 per month
insurance: $150 per month.
gas: $100 month or more.
maintenance: $300 - $500 per year.
interest: $$250 per year.

other things taxes, fines, parking tickets, daily parking: $50 per month.

These are just basic figures, but it does get into the $7000 dollar range, If you buy used it is better, until you get hit with a huge repair bill.

 

[Dichotomy]

that is much closer to being realistic.

Here is a basic breakdown:

avg econ car new: 48 to 60 month term

lease or finance: $300 per month
insurance: $150 per month.
gas: $100 month or more.
maintenance: $300 - $500 per year.
interest: $$250 per year.

other things taxes, fines, parking tickets, daily parking: $50 per month.

These are just basic figures, but it does get into the $7000 dollar range, If you buy used it is better, until you get hit with a huge repair bill.

Those figures are pretty realistic for a compact vehicle. I am not sure what the interest charge is for, though.
For many people, however, whether the number is $7,000 or $12,000, it is justifiable for the convenience.

 

[Dichotomy]

It isn't his perspective that's the problem - it's his unsubstantiated perspective. "The sky is falling" routine isn't new. His post is littered with faulty reasoning and poor examples, the likes of which have been exposed many times on this forum.

Holy cow! Have you not been reading the posts around here? I have been reading back-threads since I joined and there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of anecdotes and personal observations. You'll be a very busy person if you complain about them all!

We are all products of our experiences. If you knew me, you would know how truly a 'glass half full' guy I really am. As I said in one of my earliest posts, I may be new on UT, but I have been on other forums for years. Sorry if you don't like what you are hearing. Would you prefer no opposition at all? I have eyes. I have ears. I love this city, but it is coming down all around us. Anyone who has lived here 30+ years can see that!

Perhaps UT can be renamed Unlimited Trenches and we can all just post pics of big holes in the ground.

 

[syn]

Holy cow! Have you not been reading the posts around here? I have been reading back-threads since I joined and there are literally hundreds, if not thousands of anecdotes and personal observations. You'll be a very busy person if you complain about them all!

We are all products of our experiences. If you knew me, you would know how truly a 'glass half full' guy I really am. As I said in one of my earliest posts, I may be new on UT, but I have been on other forums for years. Sorry if you don't like what you are hearing. Would you prefer no opposition at all? I have eyes. I have ears. I love this city, but it is coming down all around us. Anyone who has lived here 30+ years can see that!

Perhaps UT can be renamed Unlimited Trenches and we can all just post pics of big holes in the ground.

The flaw with relying totally on personal experience has already been pointed out by Puke Green. Perception in many cases does not equal reality. If society was run solely on the basis of how people felt things would be pretty bad.

 

[Hydrogen]

Those figures are pretty realistic for a compact vehicle. I am not sure what the interest charge is for, though. For many people, however, whether the number is $7,000 or $12,000, it is justifiable for the convenience.

Exactly, the cost of a vehicle is relative to the needs and the sense of convenience that the vehicle can help deliver. Some people are willing to spend a considerable sum on their car because they may spend time in it, or they simply wish to.

If one decides to sell their vehicle, it's not as if there is an automatic $7,000 savings. Speaking for myself, I use transit, cabs and rent a car one or two weekends a month depending on my needs or wants. Nevertheless, I still walk a way with considerable savings. The point is that personal convenience does play a significant role in automobile use.

 

[Dichotomy]

The flaw with relying totally on personal experience has already been pointed out by Puke Green. Perception in many cases does not equal reality. If society was run solely on the basis of how people felt things would be pretty bad.

Really? Then how would you explain the likes of Henry Ford or Lincoln or the revered Jane Jacobs (who was not even formally educated in the science she preached.)

Leaders lead. Followers analyse.

 

[Dichotomy]

Exactly, the cost of a vehicle is relative to the needs and the sense of convenience that the vehicle can help deliver. Some people are willing to spend a considerable sum on their car because they may spend time in it, or they simply wish to.

If one decides to sell their vehicle, it's not as if there is an automatic $7,000 savings. Speaking for myself, I use transit, cabs and rent a car one or two weekends a month depending on my needs or wants. Nevertheless, I still walk a way with considerable savings. The point is that personal convenience does play a significant role in automobile use.

The flashpoint for the anti-car lobby are the commuters. They are an easy target because many people (and I have been guilty of this thinking, too) resent their incursion into 'our' territory. If people choose to live in Pickering or Brampton for its perceived benefits, many don't feel they have a right to enjoy the benefits of downtown, so its preferable to throw up roadblocks to keep them out.
What has gotten me to the boiling point is not the commuters, because I understand we can never build enough highways or roads to accomodate them; it is the weekend driving or the evening driving that has gotten out of control.
[WARNING: PERSONAL ANECDOTE TO FOLLOW.] I drove an auto parts truck in '81/'82, centered on Parliament St. Our central warehouse was on Caledonia, just north of Eglinton. I could satisfactorily do my pickups and deliveries during the day. After 3:30 or so, it was understood that the DVP/Gardiner were a write-off. Today, I have been frequently trapped in crawling traffic on those highways on a Sunday afternoon. No commuters there. UPS, Purolator and others are quietly bringing pressure to bear (via venues like the Board of Trade, etc.) to do SOMETHING about our traffic. Costs will go up. Service will go down.

Convenience is one factor for auto ownership, but how can you expect a family with 2,3 or 4 kids to exist without a car? Soccer matches, hockey clubs, Brownies - you name, it. Mom & Dad would go nuts trying to get the brats to all those dates on time without a car.
MetroPasses, taxi rides and rental cars add up, so as you point out, the savings won't be $7,000. It might be half that.

 

[yyzer]

My car costs me over $1000.00 per month....$580.00 for the lease, $150.00 for insurance, and between $300.00 - $350.00 for gas, at minimum...no repairs, thank god as it is still pretty new...

/but I gotta have it....

 

[syn]

The flashpoint for the anti-car lobby are the commuters. They are an easy target because many people (and I have been guilty of this thinking, too) resent their incursion into 'our' territory. If people choose to live in Pickering or Brampton for its perceived benefits, many don't feel they have a right to enjoy the benefits of downtown, so its preferable to throw up roadblocks to keep them out.
What has gotten me to the boiling point is not the commuters, because I understand we can never build enough highways or roads to accomodate them; it is the weekend driving or the evening driving that has gotten out of control.
[WARNING: PERSONAL ANECDOTE TO FOLLOW.] I drove an auto parts truck in '81/'82, centered on Parliament St. Our central warehouse was on Caledonia, just north of Eglinton. I could satisfactorily do my pickups and deliveries during the day. After 3:30 or so, it was understood that the DVP/Gardiner were a write-off. Today, I have been frequently trapped in crawling traffic on those highways on a Sunday afternoon. No commuters there. UPS, Purolator and others are quietly bringing pressure to bear (via venues like the Board of Trade, etc.) to do SOMETHING about our traffic. Costs will go up. Service will go down.

Convenience is one factor for auto ownership, but how can you expect a family with 2,3 or 4 kids to exist without a car? Soccer matches, hockey clubs, Brownies - you name, it. Mom & Dad would go nuts trying to get the brats to all those dates on time without a car.
MetroPasses, taxi rides and rental cars add up, so as you point out, the savings won't be $7,000. It might be half that.

I know a lot of families in Toronto that live without a car. It's really not necessary in quite a few areas. In the suburbs you don't really have a choice but in well designed environments where transit is viable it's not a necessity.

 

[TOinTO]

What has gotten me to the boiling point is not the commuters, because I understand we can never build enough highways or roads to accomodate them; it is the weekend driving or the evening driving that has gotten out of control.
[WARNING: PERSONAL ANECDOTE TO FOLLOW.] I drove an auto parts truck in '81/'82, centered on Parliament St. Our central warehouse was on Caledonia, just north of Eglinton. I could satisfactorily do my pickups and deliveries during the day. After 3:30 or so, it was understood that the DVP/Gardiner were a write-off. Today, I have been frequently trapped in crawling traffic on those highways on a Sunday afternoon. No commuters there. UPS, Purolator and others are quietly bringing pressure to bear (via venues like the Board of Trade, etc.) to do SOMETHING about our traffic. Costs will go up. Service will go down.

A no-fee public service is always going to be used to its limits. The answer is road tolls coupled with investment in alternatives. I'm sure the Board of Trade appreciates this

Convenience is one factor for auto ownership, but how can you expect a family with 2,3 or 4 kids to exist without a car? Soccer matches, hockey clubs, Brownies - you name, it. Mom & Dad would go nuts trying to get the brats to all those dates on time without a car.

That's just more convenience. Taking kids to clubs and soccers, etc. only requires a car when these things are spread out too far and there no convenient transit to get to them. When brownies meet at the public school 2-4 blocks away driving is neither necessary, nor appealing. If your 12 year old doesn't have to cross a bunch of 6 lane nightmares to get to soccer practice, then she can go on her bike rather than relying on parental chauffeurs.

The more these 'social engineers' force the priorities of the car on our communities, the more difficult it becomes.

 

[nfitz]

People, get a calculator and all your auto receipts and you will see. I hope you are sitting down when you do it.

I did that in 2005 and 2006 as I had to claim mileage expenses with my taxes.

2005 - $9,800 for just under 40,000 km including a $4,100 capital cost allowance. So about 25 ¢/km on a 2003 Civic.

2006 was $12,200 including a $6,500 capital cost allowance (purchased a 2007 Civic towards the end of the year to increase my deduction) on 32,000 ... so that's 38 ¢/km.

Not including capital cost allowance, costs were about $5,800 a year. But you have to pay for the car - and a lot of people are buying more than a $20,000 vehicle.

After doing 2005 (finally in late 2006), I was shocked enough that I negotiated paid mileage with my employer for 2007 (which at the current 46 ¢/km actually makes me a bit of money), and replaced a 1990s vehicle, and made sure all the repairs were up to date before year end.