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Building subways without subsidies

Even though I'm not a fan of private companies in the realm of public transit, maybe that's what we need, considering the snail's pace the TTC is expanding at. At least the government could buy them out eventually.
 
I'm not usually one for privatization either, but maybe we should look at the Canada line in Vancouver. It's about 19km long, most of which is in tunnels. It includes an elevated section in Richmond and a branch to the airport. The private company is building it at a cost of $1.5 billion to governments, barely more than the over $1 billion cost of the 6km Sheppard subway. Moreover, all overruns ($400 million so far) are being covered by the private consortium. It doesn't seem like too bad a deal.

For comparison, that distance is roughly equivalent to a DRL from Don Mills and Eglinton to Dundas West station, or an Eglinton subway from the airport to Yonge.
 
The difference is Canada line is cutting every possibly corner they can.

1) Cut and cover tunneling wherever possible (not a bad thing)
2) Much of it is elevated, not tunneled (south vancouver, airport, richmond)
3) A pathetic capacity of only 15000pphpd (platforms are only 40m long! WTF)
4) The cars are thinner than the TTC's subway cars, so tunneling costs are smaller.
5) If the line doesn't meet ridership quotas (100000/day IIRC) Translink has to pay the private operator the difference.
 
Cost recovery ratios

Atlanta (MARTA) 39.2% 2002
Bay Area (BART) 56% 2005
Chicago (CTA) 44.3% 2002
Cleveland (GCRTA) 21.5% 2002
Los Angeles (LACMTA) 19.6% 2002
Maryland (MTA) 26.3% 2002
Massachusetts Bay (MBTA) 43.7% 2002
Miami-Dade Transit 16.1% 2002
New York City subway 67.3% 2002
New York/New Jersey (PATH) 41.0% 2002
Philadelphia (SEPTA) 58.6% 2002
Philadelphia/New Jersey (PATCO) 61.4% 2002
Staten Island Railway 15.2% 2002
Washington, DC (WMATA) 61.6% 2002
Toronto (TTC): 81% 1999
Vancouver (Translink) 54% 2005
 
I wonder if a DRL would be operationally profitable...probably depends on where exactly it terminates at both ends and how well the city can trigger redevelopment. Dundas West to Pape might be, but Dundas West to Eglinton East might not be, while Dundas West to Finch might be.
 
www.ttc.ca/postings/gso-c.../_conv.htm

2005 Operating Budget with a table of cost recovery ratios - last final figure (not estimate) 78% 2003, when the City subsidised operating by $182m. 2006 Op Budget doesn't have the same table.

I seem to be too thick to figure out the city 2006 budget to see what the equivalent figure for now is.
 
wrt the Canada Line, the capacity was specified in the Request for Proposals - i.e. it was determined by the government, not the private proponent. The proponents just build to what was requested. The RFP specified that platform lengths were to be determined by the proponent based on the requested capacity.

The width of the cars will be 3 metres - wider than Skytrain cars but only marginally narrower than TTC subway cars. However, the shorter train lengths means that the curve diameter can probably be tighter for the Canada Line.

The biggest benefit is that the private proponent is contributing about $750 million to the cost of constructing the line. It is a fixed price contract, so the increases due to higher materials and construction costs (or unforeseen tunneling problems) have been borne by the private proponent. The only increases are due to changes in scope of the contract - i.e. adding stations, moving station locations, adding track, changing track location, etc.

wrt the cost recovery figures, not sure if some of the quoted figures are for rapid transit only (i.e. PATH). For the translink figure, that's for for all Translnk services, including bus, community shuttles and handydart service (5.49% recovery). Skytrain itself recovers its operating costs (For 2005, 100.4% cost recovery - the first time since the M-Line was opened).
Here's the 2005 report citing cost recovery ratios:
www.translink.bc.ca/files...6/4.13.pdf
 
There is no guarantee fare-zones will increase revenue for the TTC anyways. Yes, many people will have to pay higher fares, but many people will also pay lower fares. If enough people are taking short distance trips, it might even decrease revenue for the TTC. As the stats show, the TTC is already the most efficient non-commuter urban transit system in North America; it won't get any better than this.

And if you are going to pick on the suburbanites, why not pick on the ones who CAN afford it, the ones who drive? If the city really needs money for subway construction, it is a simple matter of tolling the Gardiner and the DVP. Unlike fare-zones, this will actually generate extra revenue, and the money won't just come from within Toronto, but also from the 905 as well.
 
If enough people are taking short distance trips, it might even decrease revenue for the TTC.

But it could also work the other way. I walk most places downtown rather than pay the $2.10 or $2.50. But if it was a $0.25 to get somewhere close I might spend it rather than walk.
 
I'll point out again that plenty of short trips are taken within the suburbs which would still benefit those riders. A Rexdale resident who works at the Albion Centre is far more likely to be earning minimum wage than one who commutes to a job downtown; subsidies work both ways. Zone fares would also give the TTC an economic case to implement more express routes also benefiting those who need to take long trips.
 
I'm over in Europe, and I discovered the biggest difference between our systems and there. In Brussels, the cash fare is E1.50. That's not too different from Toronto. On the other hand, the pass for a whole year is 325 euros.
 
I'll point out again that plenty of short trips are taken within the suburbs which would still benefit those riders. A Rexdale resident who works at the Albion Centre is far more likely to be earning minimum wage than one who commutes to a job downtown; subsidies work both ways. Zone fares would also give the TTC an economic case to implement more express routes also benefiting those who need to take long trips.
But short trips are a lot less common in the suburbs than downtown.
 
Same things goes in Waterloo. It's a bit silly that I can get from my house in North Waterloo to Cambridge (more than an hour away) for the same fare as taking the bus for 5 minutes to campus.
 
"But short trips are a lot less common in the suburbs than downtown."

I wouldn't be so sure, as I've noted before it's not unrealistic to board a half-empty Finch East bus at Finch station that's filled up by the time it reaches the 404, and empties out again by Kennedy. You can't just measure things in kilometres, because distances are relative (a "short trip" in the burbs will inevitably be longer than a "short trip" downtown), and most zone fare systems factor this in.

But even if it's less common, does that make it any less relevent for those who do depend on such trips?
 

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